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  1. #1

    Default The hydra trials

    Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

    Captain America (some kind of self sacrifice after an internal mental struggle - replaced by a time displaced Steve Rogers)

    Madame Hydra/Elisa Sinclair (reveals herself to be a hideous HP Lovecraft-esque creature - sent back to the void)
    Update: currently presumed dead - explosion

    Isaac Newton (some kind of magical destruction)

    Kraken (he'll escape - he was already off the radar)

    Hive (monsters don't make it out of these things - he's going to die- and it's going to be messy)

    Doctor Faustus (they've had him go fugitive/talk his way out of doing serious time before - but he's played a much larger role in this event- if he doesn't die, I figure he'll wind up in a secret prison with a gag in his mouth)

    Viper/Ophelia Sarkissian (she'll slither away with renewed focus - it's what she does)
    Update: leveraged by Black Widow/fugitive from Hydra

    Gorgon (hard to say - he's been dead before - maybe he accompanies Viper - or maybe he winds up in a deep dark hole)

    Arnim Zola
    Update: taken out during the Wakanda raid?

    Deadpool update: attempted to defect. Currently on the outs with the hero community. Being hunted by Quake.

    Helmut Zemo (it's going to be heartbreaking when his bromance with Steve occurs - I would like to think that this leads to a bigger villain role for Helmut - but he might also be imprisoned, in the interim; movie synergy)

    Scarlet Witch/Chthon (solicits suggest no consequences unless you count the mean mugging by Rogue)

    Vision (no clue - he's had a rough year)

    Odinson (worthiness? he is a movie star again)

    Superior Octopus/Otto Octavius (he'll escape to heal up after losing decisively to Peter- they are developing him as a recurring Spider-man villain)

    Taskmaster (he'll either turn/provide evidence to prosecute others or escape back to Bagallia; a non-extradition treaty country)
    Black Ant (imprisonment and turning on the others)

    Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)

    Moonstone (if anyone can come out of this in a better position, it's probably Karla - but this latest turn kind of solidifies her as a villain - she'll either escape or be part of the standard villain roundup)

    Fixer (like Moonstone, I could see him running away/going underground; maybe with Zemo - I think his days as a reluctant hero are over)

    Atlas (I don't like Erik's chances - he's committed the worst crime, of all; cowardice - it's his third or fourth strike - I kind of doubt that he survives)

    Blackout (back to the void for poor Marcus - he's not mentally competent - I don't see him as Thunderbolts material; although maybe someone like Moonstone uses him to escape)
    Update: Shot/killed by Maria Hill

    Baron Mordo (he'll never see trial - his encounter with Strange will either lead to some kind of banishment or the traditional live to fight another day ending)

    Harry Hauser (my expectations are that he dies - he's a relatively minor character and is already guilty of poisoning a senator - Rogers will probably have him killed, at some point)

    various Manhattan Attack Villains (deportation for some, incarceration for others, but Trapster is probably dead)

    Punisher/Frank Castle

    Hulk
    Update: returned to a deathlike state after trashing the decoy resistance

    Namor
    Update: truce ended
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 09-15-2017 at 11:13 AM.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

    Captain America (some kind of self sacrifice after an internal mental struggle - replaced by a time displaced Steve Rogers)

    Madame Hydra/Elisa Sinclair (reveals herself to be a hideous HP Lovecraft-esque creature - sent back to the void)

    Isaac Newton (some kind of magical destruction)

    Kraken (he'll escape - he was already off the radar)

    Hive (monsters don't make it out of these things - he's going to die- and it's going to be messy)

    Doctor Faustus (they've had him go fugitive/talk his way out of doing serious time before - but he's played a much larger role in this event- if he doesn't die, I figure he'll wind up in a secret prison with a gag in his mouth)

    Viper/Ophelia Sarkissian (she'll slither away with renewed focus - it's what she does)

    Gorgon (hard to say - he's been dead before - maybe he accompanies Viper - or maybe he winds up in a deep dark hole)

    Helmut Zemo (it's going to be heartbreaking when his bromance with Steve occurs - I would like to think that this leads to a bigger villain role for Helmut - but he might also be imprisoned, in the interim; movie synergy)

    Scarlet Witch (solicits suggest no consequences unless you count the mean mugging by Rogue)

    Vision (no clue - he's had a rough year)

    Odinson (worthiness? he is a movie star again)

    Superior Octopus/Otto Octavius (he'll escape to heal up after losing decisively to Peter- they are developing him as a recurring Spider-man villain)

    Taskmaster (he'll either turn/provide evidence to prosecute others or escape back to Bagallia; a non-extradition treaty country)
    Black Ant (imprisonment and turning on the others)

    Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)

    Moonstone (if anyone can come out of this in a better position, it's probably Karla - but this latest turn kind of solidifies her as a villain - she'll either escape or be part of the standard villain roundup)

    Fixer (like Moonstone, I could see him running away/going underground; maybe with Zemo - I think his days as a reluctant hero are over)

    Atlas (I don't like Erik's chances - he's committed the worst crime, of all; cowardice - it's his third or fourth strike - I kind of doubt that he survives)

    Blackout (back to the void for poor Marcus - he's not mentally competent - I don't see him as Thunderbolts material; although maybe someone like Moonstone uses him to escape)

    Baron Mordo (he'll never see trial - his encounter with Strange will either lead to some kind of banishment or the traditional live to fight another day ending)

    Harry Hauser (my expectations are that he dies - he's a relatively minor character and is already guilty of poisoning a senator - Rogers will probably have him killed, at some point)

    various Manhattan Attack Villains (deportation for some, incarceration for others, but Trapster is probably dead)
    For the heroes, at least, it depends on how well they can prove mental control/reality alteration in court... which is a valid defense in MU jurisprudence, according to a number of issues of She-Hulk (possibly Daredevil as well, but don't recall for sure). The only problem is it's not always the easiest affirmative defense to prove.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    For the heroes, at least, it depends on how well they can prove mental control/reality alteration in court... which is a valid defense in MU jurisprudence, according to a number of issues of She-Hulk (possibly Daredevil as well, but don't recall for sure). The only problem is it's not always the easiest affirmative defense to prove.
    will they even have Jennifer Walters or Matt Murdock to defend them? for that matter, wouldn't this defense work for the villains (it should apply to the new Hydra/formerly SHIELD agents), as well? Faustus has testified on mind control before.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    will they even have Jennifer Walters or Matt Murdock to defend them? for that matter, wouldn't this defense work for the villains (it should apply to the new Hydra/formerly SHIELD agents), as well? Faustus has testified on mind control before.
    That's exactly who I meant, the former SHIELD agents, Hydravengers, and so on currently working for Hydra would largely have this as a defense. It wouldn't be nearly as compelling for those, like Mr. Hyde, who have always been villains and clearly would have been happy to work for Hydra without any brainwashing.

    And clearly we're talking about after Hydra has been beaten and the regular courts are back in business, with people being called to account for their actions during this period. I don't imagine Hydra is providing fair, or any, trials for people at the moment.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    That's exactly who I meant, the former SHIELD agents, Hydravengers, and so on currently working for Hydra would largely have this as a defense. It wouldn't be nearly as compelling for those, like Mr. Hyde, who have always been villains and clearly would have been happy to work for Hydra without any brainwashing.

    And clearly we're talking about after Hydra has been beaten and the regular courts are back in business, with people being called to account for their actions during this period. I don't imagine Hydra is providing fair, or any, trials for people at the moment.
    I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  6. #6

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    Punisher (Frank's always avoided the consequences of his killing spree in the past - I don't see this time around being any different)
    Ultron (It seems to be unkillable - I expect a confrontation with the Avengers and maybe Nadia - the latter might find a way to, at least, neutralize It)
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Can't some of these characters plead the "I was only following orders" defense being that Steve was officially put in charge of the USA? Isn't this similar to the torture that went on under Pres. Bush (not judging just making an analogy). I'm more concerned with how the population that was alright with this (turning in their Inhuman neighbor) is going to coexist with the ones that didn't when this is over.
    "The greatest trick the Batman ever pulled was making people think he always has a plan"

  8. #8
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    Can't some of these characters plead the "I was only following orders" defense being that Steve was officially put in charge of the USA? Isn't this similar to the torture that went on under Pres. Bush (not judging just making an analogy). I'm more concerned with how the population that was alright with this (turning in their Inhuman neighbor) is going to coexist with the ones that didn't when this is over.
    The post-Holocaust Nuremberg Trials discounted that as a valid defense, and nowadays, you hear a lot about how it's morally necessary, if not imperative, to disobey immoral orders and/or laws, regardless of who's giving or passing them. To say "I was just following orders" is an intolerable abdication of personal responsibility, or at least it should be. As for how the general public will go on after this, I imagine a lot of the people who supported the HYDRA regime might find themselves in for some serious personal, professional, and/or social reprisals, or they might strike out quite violently at those who didn't support the HYDRA regime, blaming them for the loss of the prosperity and security that HYDRA promised. After all, there were plenty of Nazi sympathizers who went on to form neo-fascist or neo-Nazi movements after the defeat of the Axis Powers, so I could easily see loads of disgruntled Americans who thought they finally had it made under HYDRA forming cells to get revenge on everyone they blamed for the Secret Empire's downfall, especially if those people wore costumes and/or had powers.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    Can't some of these characters plead the "I was only following orders" defense being that Steve was officially put in charge of the USA? Isn't this similar to the torture that went on under Pres. Bush (not judging just making an analogy). I'm more concerned with how the population that was alright with this (turning in their Inhuman neighbor) is going to coexist with the ones that didn't when this is over.
    The country should be, irreparably, divided; at this point. Captain America is very easy to get behind guy. but, sooner or later, the people who supported him are going to have to question why they accepted his platform. the kids currently in the Hydra school system are going to need some serious deprogramming. and, as always, there are going to be people who don't want to let go of their Hydra-America. I'm kind of wondering what side Gyrich is on.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The post-Holocaust Nuremberg Trials discounted that as a valid defense, and nowadays, you hear a lot about how it's morally necessary, if not imperative, to disobey immoral orders and/or laws, regardless of who's giving or passing them. To say "I was just following orders" is an intolerable abdication of personal responsibility, or at least it should be. As for how the general public will go on after this, I imagine a lot of the people who supported the HYDRA regime might find themselves in for some serious personal, professional, and/or social reprisals, or they might strike out quite violently at those who didn't support the HYDRA regime, blaming them for the loss of the prosperity and security that HYDRA promised. After all, there were plenty of Nazi sympathizers who went on to form neo-fascist or neo-Nazi movements after the defeat of the Axis Powers, so I could easily see loads of disgruntled Americans who thought they finally had it made under HYDRA forming cells to get revenge on everyone they blamed for the Secret Empire's downfall, especially if those people wore costumes and/or had powers.
    10 fictitious dollars says that they have Eric O'Grady (if he even survives this) give the cliché "I was just following orders" line. he was kind of the poster boy for this stuff during Dark Reign (in some ways, Carol Danvers was too). I'm surprised that Captain America even let him into the Secret Avengers.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?
    At the very least, anyone actually involved with incidents such as Las Vegas needs to stand trial. Probably everyone involved in rounding up Inhumans in violation of their civil rights, too. If that means a quarter of the population goes to jail, so be it.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    10 fictitious dollars says that they have Eric O'Grady (if he even survives this) give the cliché "I was just following orders" line. he was kind of the poster boy for this stuff during Dark Reign (in some ways, Carol Danvers was too). I'm surprised that Captain America even let him into the Secret Avengers.
    Yeah, that's not a legal defense since Nuremberg. Off with his head, or at the very least lock him up if capital punishment is not on the table.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    At the very least, anyone actually involved with incidents such as Las Vegas needs to stand trial. Probably everyone involved in rounding up Inhumans in violation of their civil rights, too. If that means a quarter of the population goes to jail, so be it.
    if I heard right, there were Hydra agents caught up in that disaster.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The post-Holocaust Nuremberg Trials discounted that as a valid defense, and nowadays, you hear a lot about how it's morally necessary, if not imperative, to disobey immoral orders and/or laws, regardless of who's giving or passing them. To say "I was just following orders" is an intolerable abdication of personal responsibility, or at least it should be. As for how the general public will go on after this, I imagine a lot of the people who supported the HYDRA regime might find themselves in for some serious personal, professional, and/or social reprisals, or they might strike out quite violently at those who didn't support the HYDRA regime, blaming them for the loss of the prosperity and security that HYDRA promised. After all, there were plenty of Nazi sympathizers who went on to form neo-fascist or neo-Nazi movements after the defeat of the Axis Powers, so I could easily see loads of disgruntled Americans who thought they finally had it made under HYDRA forming cells to get revenge on everyone they blamed for the Secret Empire's downfall, especially if those people wore costumes and/or had powers.
    That defense didn't work for the Nazis because they were tried in a World Court after having waged war on the world. This shouldn't be handled by a World Court since Hydra hasn't made a move outside the USA. I think a better example might be the My Lai Massacre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    10 fictitious dollars says that they have Eric O'Grady (if he even survives this) give the cliché "I was just following orders" line. he was kind of the poster boy for this stuff during Dark Reign (in some ways, Carol Danvers was too). I'm surprised that Captain America even let him into the Secret Avengers.
    I thought O'Grady got killed in Secret Avengers and a android took his place as Black Ant.
    "The greatest trick the Batman ever pulled was making people think he always has a plan"

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

    Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)
    If I'm Hyde's lawyer I like my chances.
    1) Have him change back to Calvin Zabo. No way @#$%ing am I having Mr. Hyde appear before a jury.
    2) Try to get the charges dismissed on the grounds that American laws do not include Inhumans (it's worth a shot).
    3) Bring up his record with the Thunderbolts and how he helped save reality.
    4) State how he was asked by the legendary Steve Rogers to oversee this project of keeping America safe. It was his patriotic duty to comply.
    5) Play the "just following orders" card.
    6) Mention the double standard. I mean, the Inhumans drop a whole freaking city on Manhattan and no one went on trial.
    7) Play the Bruce Banner card; if you execute Mr. Hyde you'd also be murdering an innocent Calvin Zabo.
    I rest my case.
    "The greatest trick the Batman ever pulled was making people think he always has a plan"

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