The hydra trials

[Michael Watkins]

Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

Captain America (some kind of self sacrifice after an internal mental struggle - replaced by a time displaced Steve Rogers)

Madame Hydra/Elisa Sinclair (reveals herself to be a hideous HP Lovecraft-esque creature - sent back to the void)
Update: currently presumed dead - explosion

Isaac Newton (some kind of magical destruction)

Kraken (he'll escape - he was already off the radar)

Hive (monsters don't make it out of these things - he's going to die- and it's going to be messy)

Doctor Faustus (they've had him go fugitive/talk his way out of doing serious time before - but he's played a much larger role in this event- if he doesn't die, I figure he'll wind up in a secret prison with a gag in his mouth)

Viper/Ophelia Sarkissian (she'll slither away with renewed focus - it's what she does)
Update: leveraged by Black Widow/fugitive from Hydra

Gorgon (hard to say - he's been dead before - maybe he accompanies Viper - or maybe he winds up in a deep dark hole)

Arnim Zola
Update: taken out during the Wakanda raid?

Deadpool update: attempted to defect. Currently on the outs with the hero community. Being hunted by Quake.

Helmut Zemo (it's going to be heartbreaking when his bromance with Steve occurs - I would like to think that this leads to a bigger villain role for Helmut - but he might also be imprisoned, in the interim; movie synergy)

Scarlet Witch/Chthon (solicits suggest no consequences unless you count the mean mugging by Rogue)

Vision (no clue - he's had a rough year)

Odinson (worthiness? he is a movie star again)

Superior Octopus/Otto Octavius (he'll escape to heal up after losing decisively to Peter- they are developing him as a recurring Spider-man villain)

Taskmaster (he'll either turn/provide evidence to prosecute others or escape back to Bagallia; a non-extradition treaty country)
Black Ant (imprisonment and turning on the others)

Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)

Moonstone (if anyone can come out of this in a better position, it's probably Karla - but this latest turn kind of solidifies her as a villain - she'll either escape or be part of the standard villain roundup)

Fixer (like Moonstone, I could see him running away/going underground; maybe with Zemo - I think his days as a reluctant hero are over)

Atlas (I don't like Erik's chances - he's committed the worst crime, of all; cowardice - it's his third or fourth strike - I kind of doubt that he survives)

Blackout (back to the void for poor Marcus - he's not mentally competent - I don't see him as Thunderbolts material; although maybe someone like Moonstone uses him to escape)
Update: Shot/killed by Maria Hill

Baron Mordo (he'll never see trial - his encounter with Strange will either lead to some kind of banishment or the traditional live to fight another day ending)

Harry Hauser (my expectations are that he dies - he's a relatively minor character and is already guilty of poisoning a senator - Rogers will probably have him killed, at some point)

various Manhattan Attack Villains (deportation for some, incarceration for others, but Trapster is probably dead)

Punisher/Frank Castle

Hulk
Update: returned to a deathlike state after trashing the decoy resistance

Namor
Update: truce ended

[vitruvian]

Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

Captain America (some kind of self sacrifice after an internal mental struggle - replaced by a time displaced Steve Rogers)

Madame Hydra/Elisa Sinclair (reveals herself to be a hideous HP Lovecraft-esque creature - sent back to the void)

Isaac Newton (some kind of magical destruction)

Kraken (he'll escape - he was already off the radar)

Hive (monsters don't make it out of these things - he's going to die- and it's going to be messy)

Doctor Faustus (they've had him go fugitive/talk his way out of doing serious time before - but he's played a much larger role in this event- if he doesn't die, I figure he'll wind up in a secret prison with a gag in his mouth)

Viper/Ophelia Sarkissian (she'll slither away with renewed focus - it's what she does)

Gorgon (hard to say - he's been dead before - maybe he accompanies Viper - or maybe he winds up in a deep dark hole)

Helmut Zemo (it's going to be heartbreaking when his bromance with Steve occurs - I would like to think that this leads to a bigger villain role for Helmut - but he might also be imprisoned, in the interim; movie synergy)

Scarlet Witch (solicits suggest no consequences unless you count the mean mugging by Rogue)

Vision (no clue - he's had a rough year)

Odinson (worthiness? he is a movie star again)

Superior Octopus/Otto Octavius (he'll escape to heal up after losing decisively to Peter- they are developing him as a recurring Spider-man villain)

Taskmaster (he'll either turn/provide evidence to prosecute others or escape back to Bagallia; a non-extradition treaty country)
Black Ant (imprisonment and turning on the others)

Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)

Moonstone (if anyone can come out of this in a better position, it's probably Karla - but this latest turn kind of solidifies her as a villain - she'll either escape or be part of the standard villain roundup)

Fixer (like Moonstone, I could see him running away/going underground; maybe with Zemo - I think his days as a reluctant hero are over)

Atlas (I don't like Erik's chances - he's committed the worst crime, of all; cowardice - it's his third or fourth strike - I kind of doubt that he survives)

Blackout (back to the void for poor Marcus - he's not mentally competent - I don't see him as Thunderbolts material; although maybe someone like Moonstone uses him to escape)

Baron Mordo (he'll never see trial - his encounter with Strange will either lead to some kind of banishment or the traditional live to fight another day ending)

Harry Hauser (my expectations are that he dies - he's a relatively minor character and is already guilty of poisoning a senator - Rogers will probably have him killed, at some point)

various Manhattan Attack Villains (deportation for some, incarceration for others, but Trapster is probably dead)

For the heroes, at least, it depends on how well they can prove mental control/reality alteration in court... which is a valid defense in MU jurisprudence, according to a number of issues of She-Hulk (possibly Daredevil as well, but don't recall for sure). The only problem is it's not always the easiest affirmative defense to prove.

[Michael Watkins]

For the heroes, at least, it depends on how well they can prove mental control/reality alteration in court... which is a valid defense in MU jurisprudence, according to a number of issues of She-Hulk (possibly Daredevil as well, but don't recall for sure). The only problem is it's not always the easiest affirmative defense to prove.

will they even have Jennifer Walters or Matt Murdock to defend them? for that matter, wouldn't this defense work for the villains (it should apply to the new Hydra/formerly SHIELD agents), as well? Faustus has testified on mind control before.

[vitruvian]

will they even have Jennifer Walters or Matt Murdock to defend them? for that matter, wouldn't this defense work for the villains (it should apply to the new Hydra/formerly SHIELD agents), as well? Faustus has testified on mind control before.

That's exactly who I meant, the former SHIELD agents, Hydravengers, and so on currently working for Hydra would largely have this as a defense. It wouldn't be nearly as compelling for those, like Mr. Hyde, who have always been villains and clearly would have been happy to work for Hydra without any brainwashing.

And clearly we're talking about after Hydra has been beaten and the regular courts are back in business, with people being called to account for their actions during this period. I don't imagine Hydra is providing fair, or any, trials for people at the moment.

[Michael Watkins]

That's exactly who I meant, the former SHIELD agents, Hydravengers, and so on currently working for Hydra would largely have this as a defense. It wouldn't be nearly as compelling for those, like Mr. Hyde, who have always been villains and clearly would have been happy to work for Hydra without any brainwashing.

And clearly we're talking about after Hydra has been beaten and the regular courts are back in business, with people being called to account for their actions during this period. I don't imagine Hydra is providing fair, or any, trials for people at the moment.

I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?

[Michael Watkins]

Punisher (Frank's always avoided the consequences of his killing spree in the past - I don't see this time around being any different)
Ultron (It seems to be unkillable - I expect a confrontation with the Avengers and maybe Nadia - the latter might find a way to, at least, neutralize It)

[vitruvian]

I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?

At the very least, anyone actually involved with incidents such as Las Vegas needs to stand trial. Probably everyone involved in rounding up Inhumans in violation of their civil rights, too. If that means a quarter of the population goes to jail, so be it.

[Johnny Peril]

Secret Empire will, eventually, end. and someone (maybe a lot of people) are going to take the fall for it. I thought I would make this thread; to keep track of the consequences for the major (and not so major) players. I know that guys like Mister Hyde are, primarily, only appearing in the side books. so, if you are reading that book, please post Hyde's fate. i'll add names as they emerge. i'll speculate on some of them because i'm bored.

Mister Hyde (human testing kind of crosses a line; especially when you're decked out in fascist garb - I see execution in his future)

If I'm Hyde's lawyer I like my chances.
1) Have him change back to Calvin Zabo. No way @#$%ing am I having Mr. Hyde appear before a jury.
2) Try to get the charges dismissed on the grounds that American laws do not include Inhumans (it's worth a shot).
3) Bring up his record with the Thunderbolts and how he helped save reality.
4) State how he was asked by the legendary Steve Rogers to oversee this project of keeping America safe. It was his patriotic duty to comply.
5) Play the "just following orders" card.
6) Mention the double standard. I mean, the Inhumans drop a whole freaking city on Manhattan and no one went on trial.
7) Play the Bruce Banner card; if you execute Mr. Hyde you'd also be murdering an innocent Calvin Zabo.
I rest my case.

[Habis]

I kinda expect Helmut Zemo to be the surprise hero who saves the day and uses the Cosmic Cube to restore everything to place. Even if he was a bad guy, he seemed to have moved beyond the fascist/nazi stuff and become a more Doom-like "I want power to make everything right" kind of villain. Even if he would like to rule America as an authoritarian state, I doubt he buys the Hydra ideology crap Madame Hydra has been spoon-feeding Steve, and he is smart enough and has enough knowledge to notice the bullshit...

Don't get me wrong, he IS a bad guy, but he would rather use the power of the Cosmic Cube to conquer the world directly, rather than mess with the past in order to make Steve's illusory past real. I doubt he wants to have his memories and past rewritten in order to become the fake fantasy version of himself who Steve believes is the real Zemo, and I doubt he is on board with whatever weird mystical crap hardcore Hydra members like Madame Hydra and Von Strucker and Kraken and Gorgon and the Hive have been planning for long... (I don't know what it is, but I bet in involves tentacles...).

I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?

The country should be, irreparably, divided; at this point. Captain America is very easy to get behind guy. but, sooner or later, the people who supported him are going to have to question why they accepted his platform. the kids currently in the Hydra school system are going to need some serious deprogramming. and, as always, there are going to be people who don't want to let go of their Hydra-America. I'm kind of wondering what side Gyrich is on.

Mmmm... I can see it go thee ways:

1.-Reality warping, time travel shenanigans or mass brainwashing thanks to the Cosmic Cube. The lack of dire consequences is justified, but it reinforces the feel that nothing that happens matters, no matter how extreme, in the MU. I'm not sure that would be good so soon after the massive Secret Wars reset...

2.-During the final battle the heroes ask the normal citizens to help them, and common people go out to fight Hydra mooks wielding shotguns and baseball bats, and afterwards they can feel good about themselves, redeemed and united. Problem is, there must a ton of policemen, judges, journalists, soldiers... etc., who are actively helping Hydra opress their fellow citizens... should they be easily forgiven if they change sides during the last minute? And it seems there are many people who are loudly supporting Hydra on their own will... will everybody become amnesiac? Because otherwise, that should provoke a permanent split in American society; people would remember who was an Hydra supporter for decades...

3.-Marvel just ignores the event for the most part, and moves on to the next big thing, which is so big and threatening that people can't stop even a second to think about Secret Empire.

[Michael Watkins]

I kinda expect Helmut Zemo to be the surprise hero who saves the day and uses the Cosmic Cube to restore everything to place. Even if he was a bad guy, he seemed to have moved beyond the fascist/nazi stuff and become a more Doom-like "I want power to make everything right" kind of villain. Even if he would like to rule America as an authoritarian state, I doubt he buys the Hydra ideology crap Madame Hydra has been spoon-feeding Steve, and he is smart enough and has enough knowledge to notice the bullshit...

That would be an interesting twist. Wouldn't be the first time that Zemo fixed reality. I figured that he would try to bring his father back. Currently he is being very convincing as a Steve Rogers devotee. I don't expect it to last though.

[Johnny Peril]

So, does Maria Hill (killing innocents and basically setting all this in motion) stand trial?

[Habis]

So, does Maria Hill (killing innocents and basically setting all this in motion) stand trial?

Nah, Maria Hill is like a roach; she would survive a nuclear holocaust...

But you are right about all this being largely her fault. She created a god with the mind of a child, then used her as a warden for a prision. Either educating Kobik or finding a way to destroy her should have been the priority Nº1 of the whole of human civilization from the second she was born... Maria Hill used her as minor resource instead.

What Maria Hill did is similar to discovering a toddler who is Jesus Christ born again, and kidnapping him so you can use him to produce free bread and fishes for a prision...

Maria Hill has survived all her mess-ups because she is manageable and manipulable for the high-ups who want a puppet at the helm of SHIELD, but this time she went too far... She shouldn't be put in charge of anything ever again.

[Michael Watkins]

*bump******************

[Johnny Peril]

If I'm Hyde's lawyer I like my chances.
1) Have him change back to Calvin Zabo. No way @#$%ing am I having Mr. Hyde appear before a jury.
2) Try to get the charges dismissed on the grounds that American laws do not include Inhumans (it's worth a shot).
3) Bring up his record with the Thunderbolts and how he helped save reality.
4) State how he was asked by the legendary Steve Rogers to oversee this project of keeping America safe. It was his patriotic duty to comply.
5) Play the "just following orders" card.
6) Mention the double standard. I mean, the Inhumans drop a whole freaking city on Manhattan and no one went on trial.
7) Play the Bruce Banner card; if you execute Mr. Hyde you'd also be murdering an innocent Calvin Zabo.
I rest my case.

Something similar is occurring in X-Men gold. Congress is suggesting that American mutants are not covered by the Constitution and should be deported.

[Michael Watkins]

Something similar is occurring in X-Men gold. Congress is suggesting that American mutants are not covered by the Constitution and should be deported.

then maybe they'll get their own nation (separate of the United States) after this is all over.