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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    I kinda expect Helmut Zemo to be the surprise hero who saves the day and uses the Cosmic Cube to restore everything to place. Even if he was a bad guy, he seemed to have moved beyond the fascist/nazi stuff and become a more Doom-like "I want power to make everything right" kind of villain. Even if he would like to rule America as an authoritarian state, I doubt he buys the Hydra ideology crap Madame Hydra has been spoon-feeding Steve, and he is smart enough and has enough knowledge to notice the bullshit...

    Don't get me wrong, he IS a bad guy, but he would rather use the power of the Cosmic Cube to conquer the world directly, rather than mess with the past in order to make Steve's illusory past real. I doubt he wants to have his memories and past rewritten in order to become the fake fantasy version of himself who Steve believes is the real Zemo, and I doubt he is on board with whatever weird mystical crap hardcore Hydra members like Madame Hydra and Von Strucker and Kraken and Gorgon and the Hive have been planning for long... (I don't know what it is, but I bet in involves tentacles...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I'm just trying to envision business going back to normal after all of this. teachers, small town officials, law enforcement all have to be on board with what Hydra is doing; right now. if this is considered to be evil, how does anyone look each other in the eye; after this? how do you reeducate the children? will there be restitution for the Inhumans? will New Tian just go away? too much has changed. Steve/Hydra are the only order in the Marvel United States. that's how impactful Hydra's crimes have been. they could claim that they were mind-controlled. but are we sure that they wouldn't all just be executed/imprisoned to send a message?
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    The country should be, irreparably, divided; at this point. Captain America is very easy to get behind guy. but, sooner or later, the people who supported him are going to have to question why they accepted his platform. the kids currently in the Hydra school system are going to need some serious deprogramming. and, as always, there are going to be people who don't want to let go of their Hydra-America. I'm kind of wondering what side Gyrich is on.
    Mmmm... I can see it go thee ways:

    1.-Reality warping, time travel shenanigans or mass brainwashing thanks to the Cosmic Cube. The lack of dire consequences is justified, but it reinforces the feel that nothing that happens matters, no matter how extreme, in the MU. I'm not sure that would be good so soon after the massive Secret Wars reset...

    2.-During the final battle the heroes ask the normal citizens to help them, and common people go out to fight Hydra mooks wielding shotguns and baseball bats, and afterwards they can feel good about themselves, redeemed and united. Problem is, there must a ton of policemen, judges, journalists, soldiers... etc., who are actively helping Hydra opress their fellow citizens... should they be easily forgiven if they change sides during the last minute? And it seems there are many people who are loudly supporting Hydra on their own will... will everybody become amnesiac? Because otherwise, that should provoke a permanent split in American society; people would remember who was an Hydra supporter for decades...

    3.-Marvel just ignores the event for the most part, and moves on to the next big thing, which is so big and threatening that people can't stop even a second to think about Secret Empire.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    That defense didn't work for the Nazis because they were tried in a World Court after having waged war on the world. This shouldn't be handled by a World Court since Hydra hasn't made a move outside the USA. I think a better example might be the My Lai Massacre.


    I thought O'Grady got killed in Secret Avengers and a android took his place as Black Ant.
    From his perspective, Black Ant is Eric O'Grady. He remembers dying. And he might be right. He was made differently than most LMDs. It's not like the real Eric's body was retrieved. It was "recycled " to create Black Ant. It is a real philosophical debate in the making. What is existence?

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    I kinda expect Helmut Zemo to be the surprise hero who saves the day and uses the Cosmic Cube to restore everything to place. Even if he was a bad guy, he seemed to have moved beyond the fascist/nazi stuff and become a more Doom-like "I want power to make everything right" kind of villain. Even if he would like to rule America as an authoritarian state, I doubt he buys the Hydra ideology crap Madame Hydra has been spoon-feeding Steve, and he is smart enough and has enough knowledge to notice the bullshit...
    That would be an interesting twist. Wouldn't be the first time that Zemo fixed reality. I figured that he would try to bring his father back. Currently he is being very convincing as a Steve Rogers devotee. I don't expect it to last though.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    So, does Maria Hill (killing innocents and basically setting all this in motion) stand trial?
    "The greatest trick the Batman ever pulled was making people think he always has a plan"

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    So, does Maria Hill (killing innocents and basically setting all this in motion) stand trial?
    Nah, Maria Hill is like a roach; she would survive a nuclear holocaust...

    But you are right about all this being largely her fault. She created a god with the mind of a child, then used her as a warden for a prision. Either educating Kobik or finding a way to destroy her should have been the priority Nș1 of the whole of human civilization from the second she was born... Maria Hill used her as minor resource instead.

    What Maria Hill did is similar to discovering a toddler who is Jesus Christ born again, and kidnapping him so you can use him to produce free bread and fishes for a prision...

    Maria Hill has survived all her mess-ups because she is manageable and manipulable for the high-ups who want a puppet at the helm of SHIELD, but this time she went too far... She shouldn't be put in charge of anything ever again.
    Last edited by Habis; 06-07-2017 at 12:50 PM.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Come on this is Marvel we are talking about here. Everything will be forgiven and forgotten by the next big event. There are never any long term consequences at Marvel.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Nah, Maria Hill is like a roach; she would survive a nuclear holocaust...

    But you are right about all this being largely her fault. She created a god with the mind of a child, then used her as a warden for a prision. Either educating Kobik or finding a way to destroy her should have been the priority Nș1 of the whole of human civilization from the second she was born... Maria Hill used her as minor resource instead.

    What Maria Hill did is similar to discovering a toddler who is Jesus Christ born again, and kidnapping him so you can use him to produce free bread and fishes for a prision...

    Maria Hill has survived all her mess-ups because she is manageable and manipulable for the high-ups who want a puppet at the helm of SHIELD, but this time she went too far... She shouldn't be put in charge of anything ever again.
    she has to last as long as Henry Peter Gyrich; the original Teflon govt goon. personally, I think it was admirable that she tried to give the supervillains peace. where I differ is that I think she should have given them customized existences. some of them were living better lives. but wtf was up with Whirlwind being in kindergarten?

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    she has to last as long as Henry Peter Gyrich; the original Teflon govt goon. personally, I think it was admirable that she tried to give the supervillains peace. where I differ is that I think she should have given them customized existences. some of them were living better lives. but wtf was up with Whirlwind being in kindergarten?
    She did not have the best interests of the prisoners in mind, they got 'good' fake lives just because that kept Pleasant Hill, well, pleasant, and easy to manage. Also to create the idealized community SHE wanted to live in. It was still done entirely without their consent or any input from them about what types of lives they wanted to live. I get that prisoners don't get to make certain decisions about thier lives while incarcerated, but rewriting their entire lives crosses the line. And considering their primary identities weren't technically conscious while living their other lives, it wasn't like they could even truly experience the lives created for them until afterward, like they had a bunch of memories that werent really theirs. And that usually resulted in feelings of resentment, confusion, or messed up relationships, or they just plain didn't like the lives they were given (not everyone has the same idea of a good life)

    But, yeah, Hill will likely weasel out of repercussions for doing that eventually.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-08-2017 at 09:50 PM.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    She did not have the best interests of the prisoners in mind, they got 'good' fake lives just because that kept Pleasant Hill, well, pleasant, and easy to manage. Also to create the idealized community SHE wanted to live in. It was still done entirely without their consent or any input from them about what types of lives they wanted to live. I get that prisoners don't get to make certain decisions about thier lives while incarcerated, but rewriting their entire lives crosses the line. And considering their primary identities weren't technically conscious while living their other lives, it wasn't like they could even truly experience the lives created for them until afterward, like they had a bunch of memories that werent really theirs. And that usually resulted in feelings of resentment, confusion, or messed up relationships, or they just plain didn't like the lives they were given (not everyone has the same idea of a good life)

    But, yeah, Hill will likely weasel out of repercussions for doing that eventually.
    I mentioned that. but take into account who Maria is. she could have made it much much worse. she was ok with having actual "good guys" thrown into the Negative Zone. she could have made Pleasant Hill hell on Earth. she could have had Kobik erase the supervillains.

  10. #25

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    *bump******************

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    If I'm Hyde's lawyer I like my chances.
    1) Have him change back to Calvin Zabo. No way @#$%ing am I having Mr. Hyde appear before a jury.
    2) Try to get the charges dismissed on the grounds that American laws do not include Inhumans (it's worth a shot).
    3) Bring up his record with the Thunderbolts and how he helped save reality.
    4) State how he was asked by the legendary Steve Rogers to oversee this project of keeping America safe. It was his patriotic duty to comply.
    5) Play the "just following orders" card.
    6) Mention the double standard. I mean, the Inhumans drop a whole freaking city on Manhattan and no one went on trial.
    7) Play the Bruce Banner card; if you execute Mr. Hyde you'd also be murdering an innocent Calvin Zabo.
    I rest my case.
    Something similar is occurring in X-Men gold. Congress is suggesting that American mutants are not covered by the Constitution and should be deported.
    "The greatest trick the Batman ever pulled was making people think he always has a plan"

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    Something similar is occurring in X-Men gold. Congress is suggesting that American mutants are not covered by the Constitution and should be deported.
    then maybe they'll get their own nation (separate of the United States) after this is all over.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    She did not have the best interests of the prisoners in mind, they got 'good' fake lives just because that kept Pleasant Hill, well, pleasant, and easy to manage. Also to create the idealized community SHE wanted to live in. It was still done entirely without their consent or any input from them about what types of lives they wanted to live. I get that prisoners don't get to make certain decisions about thier lives while incarcerated, but rewriting their entire lives crosses the line. And considering their primary identities weren't technically conscious while living their other lives, it wasn't like they could even truly experience the lives created for them until afterward, like they had a bunch of memories that werent really theirs. And that usually resulted in feelings of resentment, confusion, or messed up relationships, or they just plain didn't like the lives they were given (not everyone has the same idea of a good life)

    But, yeah, Hill will likely weasel out of repercussions for doing that eventually.
    What line is crossed then, when said criminals commit crime after crime with no consequences whatsoever?

    Graviton, for instance, willful butchered a team of heroes to impress Moonstone, and nearly reshaped the planet. Anything short of a bullet to the brain-pan could be considered a mercy.

    Pleasant Hill happened because of how ingrained the jail break is in the comic book genre. Writers love lamp-shading the crap out of it, though it was lazy meta commentary ten years ago.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    the crimes they committed are kind of irrelevant. The fact remains they were sentenced to prison time, and that's it, you don't get to just change a prisoner's sentence on a whim without so much as informing them. To do something else violates the sentence handed down, and their rights, no matter what they may have done.

    And besides, some of them were in there for petty things, as well.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-10-2017 at 07:18 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    the crimes they committed are kind of irrelevant. The fact remains they were sentenced to prison time, and that's it, you don't get to just change a prisoner's sentence on a whim without so much as informing them. To do something else violates the sentence handed down, and their rights, no matter what they may have done.
    Given that some of the villains involved can kill entire cities or towns, I'd say that their crimes are very relevant, as is their constant escape from jail.

    The problem with Pleasant Hill is that it asks the reader to be sympathetic to the villains, how they were altered, while relying on the very genre convention that led to the creation of Pleasant Hill in the first place, I.E, the constant escapes and the fact that they are never punished for their crimes.


    Frankly, it seems odd to me that Hill had to run Pleasant Hill off the books. You'd think by now that the government would be tired of it all.

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