Is Cyclops is a disappointment?

[DDM]

Xavier may have met Sage first and took her under his wing but Cyclops is credited as the first "official" X-Man.

Nope, Sage was training as an X-Man in the uniform first. She was kept secret though.

Technically though there two X-Men groups before Xavier even.

[jpmst17]

it very much so matters how old she is. why do you think there are so many laws that prohibit people under a certain age from doing things? Children's minds are constantly developing and it takes years for children to develop to process simple things older adults take for granted such as being able to drive a car. Killing one person let alone several people can be hard for grown men and women; think about the many men and women who suffer from ptsd. Now insert a 14 yo girl who has never been in such a situation. As an adult, you have to be sensitive to these things and at the very least he should have counseled her to try to take out the assailants without using deadly force. Cyclops didn't do that and that is why he is a deplorable leader in my eyes.



not true. not all humans are trying to kill mutants just as all mutants are not fighting to better the mutant cause.



1.) who said she had to left hundreds of people die? i'm saying instead of giving her the choice, as children can be impulsive and react based on emotion versus actually thinking things through, he could have instructed her to do what she can to defend the potential victims without using deadly force.

2.) none of this justifies Cyclops being ok with a child killing. I think this is the point you are missing. circumstantial things I get but it's not like he had a mission to prevent children from killing. his philosophy was to let children decide if they need to kill or not and if they felt it was ok then he was good with that choice. that is highly irresponsible for an hero, let alone an adult to train and guide impressions or children who still trying to figure out their place in the world.

3.) you are still missing my point. the fact Cyclops gave a child the option to kill and was ok with this is the issue. we don't in society let children/young adults under the age of 21 because as a society we don't think children can handle the responsibilities that come with said activity. yet you want to argue that a responsible adult would be ok with giving a child the choice to kill? Cyclops should have cautioned her or provided more guidance in this scenario and being indifferent in response to her decision was a huge mistake in my opinion.

4.) Those thoughts are due to the ignorance of man. It's why it is important to try to garner and promote means by which ignorance can be quelled via dialogue. Cyclops as Alex pointed out loss sight of that.


5.)where did storm give idie the option to kill? where did storm give any child the option to kill? show me a scenario like this and then we can discuss the application of how these two leaders are judged.

6.) I'm not blaming Cyclops more than I am acknowledging the choices he made and how i don't think he did was necessarily heroic and responsible as a mutant.

none of that matters. it was run away and let hundreds of people die, and trying to live with that on your conscience. why not be mad at wolverine who was at a bar getting drunk instead of being there?

[Kisinith]

it very much so matters how old she is. why do you think there are so many laws that prohibit people under a certain age from doing things? Children's minds are constantly developing and it takes years for children to develop to process simple things older adults take for granted such as being able to drive a car. Killing one person let alone several people can be hard for grown men and women; think about the many men and women who suffer from ptsd. Now insert a 14 yo girl who has never been in such a situation. As an adult, you have to be sensitive to these things and at the very least he should have counseled her to try to take out the assailants without using deadly force. Cyclops didn't do that and that is why he is a deplorable leader in my eyes.

Totally and completely incorrect, you grab a whole bunch of random information about kids and have thrown them together. Yes, dealing with a terrorist attack is a traumatic event, regardless of if she had gotten involved. Yes, she should receive counseling. No, it absolutely should not have been Cyclops. Cyclops didn’t order her to kill anyone. He couldn’t and shouldn’t have tried to armchair quarterback how she did so. He wasn’t there and, although he was trying to get there as fast as he could, he’s not a telepath and had zero operational awareness of what was going on. Second, its much harder much more difficult to use nonlethal force than it is to use lethal force. Idie, was not a fully trained X-Man as you are so fond of saying she was only a 14 year old kid. As such telling her to use only non-lethal force would be much more likely to get her, and all of the innocents she was protecting, hurt and/or killed.

1.) who said she had to left hundreds of people die? i'm saying instead of giving her the choice, as children can be impulsive and react based on emotion versus actually thinking things through, he could have instructed her to do what she can to defend the potential victims without using deadly force.

How? He’s not a telepath and wasn't there. He can’t walk her through a complex fight against multiple armed terrorists over the radio and thinking otherwise is foolish. No one else was there and no one was going to make it in time to stop the terrorists. Her choice was to act and save lives or to run away and save her own while letting hundreds die. All Cyclops did was support her choice to save lives.

2.) none of this justifies Cyclops being ok with a child killing. I think this is the point you are missing. circumstantial things I get but it's not like he had a mission to prevent children from killing. his philosophy was to let children decide if they need to kill or not and if they felt it was ok then he was good with that choice. that is highly irresponsible for an hero, let alone an adult to train and guide impressions or children who still trying to figure out their place in the world.

There is a difference between being ok with a child killing and being ok with a child killing in self defense, thats the thing that I think you are missing. Cyclops did not put her in a position where she would have to make that choice (the terrorists attacking did).

3.) you are still missing my point. the fact Cyclops gave a child the option to kill and was ok with this is the issue. we don't in society let children/young adults under the age of 21 because as a society we don't think children can handle the responsibilities that come with said activity. yet you want to argue that a responsible adult would be ok with giving a child the choice to kill? Cyclops should have cautioned her or provided more guidance in this scenario and being indifferent in response to her decision was a huge mistake in my opinion.

Yes, I am ok with what he did, because it wasn't a choice between killing or not killing it was a choice between acting or running away, and under the circumstances as presented I’m completely ok with leaving that choice to Idie. She thought she could handle it and she did, it sucks that people had to die, it sucks that a child had to do it but the responsibility for that choice is on the terrorists, not on her and not on Cyclops.

4.) Those thoughts are due to the ignorance of man. It's why it is important to try to garner and promote means by which ignorance can be quelled via dialogue. Cyclops as Alex pointed out loss sight of that.

Incorrect, and ignoring plenty of facts that refute that idea. Cyclops and the Utopia X-Men pre-and post schism engaged in multiple ways of promoting human-mutant relations. Whenever possible, Cyclops engaged in dialog excepting of course that time he was possessed by the Phoenix (which is excusable because he was, you know… possessed by the Phoenix). As an example, Schism started with Cyclops and Wolverine attempting to have a dialog at the UN about the use of Sentinels, not an attack using naked force. Cyclops was also actively engaged with the government of San Francisco and the use of a human publicist to promote peaceful coexistence.

This also has no bearing on the situation with Idie unless you think he should have somehow tried talking down the hellfire terrorists and rampaging sentinels. Cyclops didn’t lose sight of that. Alex, and you, are wrong.

5.)where did storm give idie the option to kill? where did storm give any child the option to kill? show me a scenario like this and then we can discuss the application of how these two leaders are judged.

It was a question about responsibility, you condemned Cyclops for not providing counseling to Idie after the trauma of the attack at the museum. (I’m assuming it was after considering that as he wasn’t there he couldn’t do anything in the moment). I was pointing out that similar situations had occurred with her and drawing parallels.

There are also the 2 occasions as headmistress where she mobilized the entire student body for combat, first to attack Red Onslaught (Ugh) in Axis (Ugh again) and also to defend the school in X-Men. In Axis she made the decision to send untrained students into combat, and while I don’t condemn her choices if you have a problem with Cyclops actions it would be hypocritical not to condemn Storms.

6.) I'm not blaming Cyclops more than I am acknowledging the choices he made and how i don't think he did was necessarily heroic and responsible as a mutant.

No, your condemning him for things that he had no responsibility for, nor any way of effecting.

a 14 year old killed. i get it was terrorist but this was a child that possibly had to kill for the first time. it's not something that he should allowed her to do. that is what is so horrible about it.

The only other option was to have her run away and let hundreds of other innocent people die, in a situation where she also expressed confidence that she could handle. Yeah the situation sucks but It. Was. Not. His. Fault. It sucks that she had to kill but her mental state would have been worse if she had run away and all those people died.

As a leader Cyclops can be condemned for situations the he knowingly ordered people into. He ordered X-Force, as such he shares responsibility for its actions and its failures. The situation with Idie however, was beyond his control and not a result of any order he gave. Its a regrettable situation but not his fault.

[Vegan Daddy]

Reader: You're disappointing.

Cyclops: No, I'm complicated.

[Master of Sound]

I don't view Cyclops as a villain. The worst he did was kill Xavier. Jan did worse under that same influence. Cyclops is a great hero. Greater than most.

[Ronin705]

Almost all the X-men have blood ont heir hands. No point in splitting hairs about it.

[seaturkey]

I already explained he did this by killing the symbol of unity and peace between mutants and humans as well as promoting an isolationist approach when interacting with humans instead of an inclusive one. storm did nite than Cyclops when mutsnts were faced with an extinction event. she trsvrked the world to relocate thrm. Cyclops after mutants were depowered did nothing to relocate those helpless mutants. it was hid ideals that were like Hitler. he was willing to do anything to save mutsnts even if it resulted in the extinction if another race of people.

Ok, I've read through every page thus far and I can't keep my mouth shut anymore. He did not kill the symbol of unity and peace" of humans OR mutants, that is a lie. Nor did he "promote an isolationist approach with interacting with humans," that is also a blatant lie. Those are both false narratives and you know it.

First off, how is sending in teams to patrol the city of San Fran, AKA a major city in the continental USA, in any way, shape or form of isolationism from humans?

Second, The X-men themselves are the symbol of peace and unity for humans and mutants, not Xavier exclusively. *Though admittedly symbols are just that, and therefore interpretational to the individual. Then again, opinions are not facts, so your opinion is not relevant to a discussion you've repeatedly stated needs to be argued based on facts.

Third, taking the school to limbo is a Hell (pun intended) of a lot more isolationist, ie another dimension, than placing the mutants on a island a couple miles off the western coast of the USA. You don't have a problem with Storm doing it and doing it in a more extreme way, but when Cyke did it, its now bad? Can you say hypocrite?

Fourth, stopping a dangerous poison gas from being released in the atmosphere is what anyone with a conscience (especially a hero) would do, & if you're instead referring to AxX, Cyclops has not done, nor has he EVER attempted to sacrifice anyone for mutant survival. Hope was destined to have the Pheonix, as was explained to him by his son Cable. None of his actions were aloof or based blindly on faith, it was based on actionable intel from his own time-travelling son. At no time was the safety of non-mutants ever placed in danger, save by the actions of the avengers themselves via creating the P5, who I might add, were being attacked repeatedly by the avangers afterwards while the P5 were literally stopping world disasters like stopping earthquakes and preventing birth defects.

Fifth, Cyclops did go around rescuing mutants, this was shown numerous times during the bendis, post-AvX run, so again you're flat out wrong on that point.

Sixth, Idie was not ordered to kill anyone, ever. Cyclops told her to, "do what she NEEDS to." So, she did what she needed to survive. Was it tragic that a child's psyche was damaged, possible permanently? Of course it's tragic! But far more tragic would've been to hear how little Idie and the rest were all slaughtered cause she didn't defend herself. But please, tell me what she should have done, and while you're at it, tell me where the hell were the rest of the finger pointers like storm and Wolvie? I don't know about Storm, but I do know that ol' canucklehead was far more concerned with his bottle than he was with the life of the little girl he'd been charged to care for that night. But yes, it's clearly Cyclops' fault.

Seventh, (entwined with #6) Xavier has virtually exclusively taken kids ranging in ages from 13-16 and inducted them into the X-men, pitting them against everything from angry mobs to terrorists to rogue nations, even galactic empires like the Shi'ar. That was ok, cause he's Xavier, but the moment his star pupil does the same thing, now it's bad. Again, I ask you, can you say hypocrisy?

Lastly and IMO most importantly, Cyclops has absolutely nothing in common with Hitler. The very fact that you even make this claim shows both a high level of bias towards the character and further shows your incredible level of ignorance of the character and real-life monster that was Hitler, may he burn in Hell.

PS: As I went down this list, I've found one constant when it comes to Cyclops detrackers and that is this: The haters always cherry pick moments.taking them either completely out of context or outright lying about how the events in question actually occurred. The Idie plot point is a perfect example, as you did the very same thing claiming that Cyclops ordered her to kill, which again is not what happened. Please quit twisting facts/events to support your false narrative, it's very tiresome and only makes you look out to be foolish and bias.

Thank you, and have a nice day!