Is Cyclops is a disappointment?

[dragonmp93]

if you guys can't offer something meaningful to this discussion of Cyclops betraying mutantkind please don't derail the topic. thanks in advance.

Storm is who betrayed mutantkind, she bowed down to Queen Genocide.

[dragonmp93]

oh ok got ya. has there been any hints that they may bring him back to life?

did u read the link? do u think he betrayed mutants or at least Xavier's dream for peaceful coexistence of mutants and humans?

Well, Storm betrayed the dream of the mutants of keep living.

that's a fair point. I think him killing Xavier was perceived so negatively because of what Xavier symbolizes. he killed the living symbol of peace. also jean seemingly wanted to correct all the bad she had done. she was remorseful. Cyclops seemed to embrace the idea of separation and isolationism after the whole ordeal. I don't think this help in how many perceived him.

And the dream is just that, a dream. A dream that is going to get them killed by the Avengers, or the Inhumans, or SHIELD, or the US government.

I think killing Xavier wasn't an isolated incident that made him completely irredeemable. I think it was more the moment when even the people that had been giving him the benefit of the doubt could no longer deny how horrible he had become.

Pretty much since the whole "No More Mutants" thing, Cyclops had been on a slow slide into villainy. His methods were increasingly brutal, extreme, and confrontational, his outlooks more racist and his attitude far more egotistical.

Blackbolt and the Scarlet Witch commit genocide and somehow Cyclops is the villain.

[uebersoldat]

that's a fair point. I think him killing Xavier was perceived so negatively because of what Xavier symbolizes. he killed the living symbol of peace. also jean seemingly wanted to correct all the bad she had done. she was remorseful. Cyclops seemed to embrace the idea of separation and isolationism after the whole ordeal. I don't think this help in how many perceived him.

Exactly. Cyclops was a remorseless jerk after he killed Xavier that spiraled further and further down a more cruel and heartless path. Jean was the opposite after her Phoenix actions.

[Ulfhammer]

There were always two ways of responding to mutant oppression by humans in the MU.

1. Xaviers Way: Locate new mutants and help them develop their powers. Protect mutants and humans in danger from angry mobs, villains, natural disasters, etc. Fight superbeings who would threaten the safety of mutants and humans.

2. Classic Magneto's Way: Threaten humans with slavery or extinction unless they acknowledged the superiority of mutants. Kill humans, mutants and anyone else who threatened the agenda of superiority of mutants.

These two positions were always very clear cut. Given these two positions Cyclops remained generally true to Xavier's method his entire life. The difference was that his faith that the dream would come true faltered over the final few years. It didn't change the fact that with only a few notable exceptions he did follow the method Xavier outlined.

If we must talk about AvX then lets remember three key facts.

First, Cyclops did what he did primarily to prevent the extinction of the mutant species. There was a handful left and the phoenix legitimately offered a chance to restart mutant births on Earth.

Secondly he did carry a heavy burden with the death of Xavier. The only reason that Logan didn't kill him was that he recognized Cyclops was willing and even desired to be executed for what he did. Cyclops has always taken the burden of events beyond his own control on himself. That's why he's been so uptight all these years.

Finally compare Xaviers method of trying to talk Cyclops down at the end of AvX versus Cyclops trying to talk Jean down during the DPS. Xavier was berating Cyclops like an upstart school boy. Cyclops surrendered to Jean and tried to make her realize that she was holding back because she loved her friends. It almost worked before Xavier attacked Jean. His same shortsighted approach in trying confront Cyclops aggressively and as an authority figure led directly to his own death.

None of that changes the underlying fact that Cyclops spent his entire life fighting for mutants and humans. He never stopped, never took time out for a life of his own. He never put down the burden of being the guardian that Xavier trained him to be. That's the reason Xavier left everything to him. That's the reason his tombstone says "He fought for us". That's the reason Emma said "For Cyclops" when she was bashing BB's throat in. Marvel did such a terrible job of vilifying Cyclops I think their hearts weren't really in it.

[Ulfhammer]

Exactly. Cyclops was a remorseless jerk after he killed Xavier that spiraled further and further down a more cruel and heartless path. Jean was the opposite after her Phoenix actions.

Jean got a handy retcon to help with that. Maybe you forgot.

[King_Thor13]

Cyclops can be a jerk, but he's far from the genocidal maniac he is made out to be. Hell, Magneto, Emma Frost and Wolverine have arguably done much worse, and they're mostly treated as heroes. Yes, they were 'redeemed'. But Cyclops' heroic past seems to have been ignored for the sake of a few of his actions, which aren't nearly as bad as some writers would have you believe.

[dragonmp93]

Jean got a handy retcon to help with that. Maybe you forgot.

Well, a retcon and a retcon that retcons the other retcon.

[Ulfhammer]

that's a fair point. I think him killing Xavier was perceived so negatively because of what Xavier symbolizes. he killed the living symbol of peace. also jean seemingly wanted to correct all the bad she had done. she was remorseful. Cyclops seemed to embrace the idea of separation and isolationism after the whole ordeal. I don't think this help in how many perceived him.

What did Xavier symbolize? Sure he preached peace and love, while training child soldiers for war. He played head games with every X-men to try to mold them into what he thought they needed to be. He lied to them. He faked his own death twice. Xavier was never the flower child placing Carnations into guns barrels. He was a mutant general just like Cyclops after him. And frankly he was inferior to Cyclops in many was a leader and as a mentor.

[butterflykyss]

Utopia was created when the mutant race was an endangered species why not set up a place for mutants to live where mutants haters wouldn't be able to kill off the last few mutants god knows the Avengers weren't going to defend the Mutants the rest of the Marvel Universe has always ignored the mutant plight even when serving with Mutants or having mutants in their families like Franklin Richards. Every action Cyclops did it was about protecting and restoring the mutant race when the rest of the X-Men would sit by and accept what was happening. Is Cyclops considered a Mutant terrorist in the Marvel Universe? Yes the irony is to the general public of the Marvel Universe so are the X-Men.

you know I really don't understand this narrative that mutants, save cyckops, did nothing during the face of adversity. he must had some power to give mutsnts the will to fight since all they do is lay over and die. and furthermore, using children to murder is reprehensible. Cyclops is dangerous because he is willing to meet am objective at all cost regardless of the stakes. I don't think that is something to be proud of.

I think killing Xavier wasn't an isolated incident that made him completely irredeemable. I think it was more the moment when even the people that had been giving him the benefit of the doubt could no longer deny how horrible he had become.

Pretty much since the whole "No More Mutants" thing, Cyclops had been on a slow slide into villainy. His methods were increasingly brutal, extreme, and confrontational, his outlooks more racist and his attitude far more egotistical.

yes yes yes. I completely agree.

Storm is who betrayed mutantkind, she bowed down to Queen Genocide.

ok what dies this have to do with Cyclops being a disappointment.

Well, Storm betrayed the dream of the mutants of keep living.


And the dream is just that, a dream. A dream that is going to get them killed by the Avengers, or the Inhumans, or SHIELD, or the US government.


Blackbolt and the Scarlet Witch commit genocide and somehow Cyclops is the villain.

again none of this is relevant to Cyclops being a disappointment.

Exactly. Cyclops was a remorseless jerk after he killed Xavier that spiraled further and further down a more cruel and heartless path. Jean was the opposite after her Phoenix actions.

someone gets it!

There were always two ways of responding to mutant oppression by humans in the MU.

1. Xaviers Way: Locate new mutants and help them develop their powers. Protect mutants and humans in danger from angry mobs, villains, natural disasters, etc. Fight superbeings who would threaten the safety of mutants and humans.

2. Classic Magneto's Way: Threaten humans with slavery or extinction unless they acknowledged the superiority of mutants. Kill humans, mutants and anyone else who threatened the agenda of superiority of mutants.

These two positions were always very clear cut. Given these two positions Cyclops remained generally true to Xavier's method his entire life. The difference was that his faith that the dream would come true faltered over the final few years. It didn't change the fact that with only a few notable exceptions he did follow the method Xavier outlined.

If we must talk about AvX then lets remember three key facts.

First, Cyclops did what he did primarily to prevent the extinction of the mutant species. There was a handful left and the phoenix legitimately offered a chance to restart mutant births on Earth.

Secondly he did carry a heavy burden with the death of Xavier. The only reason that Logan didn't kill him was that he recognized Cyclops was willing and even desired to be executed for what he did. Cyclops has always taken the burden of events beyond his own control on himself. That's why he's been so uptight all these years.

Finally compare Xaviers method of trying to talk Cyclops down at the end of AvX versus Cyclops trying to talk Jean down during the DPS. Xavier was berating Cyclops like an upstart school boy. Cyclops surrendered to Jean and tried to make her realize that she was holding back because she loved her friends. It almost worked before Xavier attacked Jean. His same shortsighted approach in trying confront Cyclops aggressively and as an authority figure led directly to his own death.

None of that changes the underlying fact that Cyclops spent his entire life fighting for mutants and humans. He never stopped, never took time out for a life of his own. He never put down the burden of being the guardian that Xavier trained him to be. That's the reason Xavier left everything to him. That's the reason his tombstone says "He fought for us". That's the reason Emma said "For Cyclops" when she was bashing BB's throat in. Marvel did such a terrible job of vilifying Cyclops I think their hearts weren't really in it.

Cyclops has done reprehensible acts as leaders. sending children to murder is indefensible. I don't think he further the mutant cause by his efforts. and Xavier probably was harsher to Cyclops because he was fed up with him bring so entitled and self-righteous. all in all he didn't have to killl Xavier

Jean got a handy retcon to help with that. Maybe you forgot.

retcon or not, she tried to redeem herself. not so much with Cyclops

[butterflykyss]

Cyclops can be a jerk, but he's far from the genocidal maniac he is made out to be. Hell, Magneto, Emma Frost and Wolverine have arguably done much worse, and they're mostly treated as heroes. Whereas Cyclops' heroic past seems to have been ignored for the sake of a few of his actions, which aren't nearly as bad as some writers would have you believe

I think the stark difference between the characters you mentioned and Cyclops is that they all tried to redeem themselves by at least acknowledging their approach prior to changing wasn't the best one. Cyclops never seemed to do this and kept spiraling towards some would say was that of a villain .

What did Xavier symbolize? Sure he preached peace and love, while training child soldiers for war. He played head games with every X-men to try to mold them into what he thought they needed to be. He lied to them. He faked his own death twice. Xavier was never the flower child placing Carnations into guns barrels. He was a mutant general just like Cyclops after him. And frankly he was inferior to Cyclops in many was a leader and as a mentor.

Xavier taught the xmen what they needed to do to survive in a world that hated and feared them. if not for his training those kids magneto would have killed humans off years ago. and no one said he was perfect but his ideas towards interaction between mutants and humans were. Cyclops killed that perception if reality and the hopes of achieving that when he murdered xavier

[Ulfhammer]

Cyclops has done reprehensible acts as leaders.

Like what?

sending children to murder is indefensible.

He learned it from papa Xavier. How old were the O5 in UXM #1? Perhaps your in favor of having children slaughtered on panel instead of fighting? That's harsh. Really harsh. If I was a mutant child I would prefer to fight rather than die. How about you?

I don't think he further the mutant cause by his efforts.

Mutants being alive is furthering mutant causes. I guess you could argue that the mutants would have gotten along great with everyone else 6' under. Funny your avatar had a similar attitude. Even after she did fight she was so broken up about it she quit leadership and tried to quit the team. That's why they need Cyclops. Thank God Emma was around to get the troops going.

and Xavier probably was harsher to Cyclops because he was fed up with him bring so entitled and self-righteous. all in all he didn't have to killl Xavier

Xavier was the most entitled and self-righteous character in the entire MU. I'm not going to try to prove that. If you've read x-men you know that. If you see Cyclops this way then maybe you should wonder where he got the attitude. That's right, his father figure and mentor papa Xavier.

[dragonmp93]

you know I really don't understand this narrative that mutants, save cyckops, did nothing during the face of adversity. he must had some power to give mutsnts the will to fight since all they do is lay over and die. and furthermore, using children to murder is reprehensible. Cyclops is dangerous because he is willing to meet am objective at all cost regardless of the stakes. I don't think that is something to be proud of.

Yeah, Storm's method is much better, lie down and wait for either death and that the thing work themselves out on their own.

And the X-men always has been about using children to murder.

yes yes yes. I completely agree.



ok what dies this have to do with Cyclops being a disappointment.




again none of this is relevant to Cyclops being a disappointment.



someone gets it!

So it's a fact that Cyclops is a disappointment ?.

Cyclops has done reprehensible acts as leaders. sending children to murder is indefensible. I don't think he further the mutant cause by his efforts. and Xavier probably was harsher to Cyclops because he was fed up with him bring so entitled and self-righteous. all in all he didn't have to killl Xavier

Haven't you noticed that the O5 are children being used to kill as well ?.

retcon or not, she tried to redeem herself. not so much with Cyclops

Eh, Jean wouldn't had to kill herself if the Professor X had stayed away, but no, he had to show and cause her to turn into the Dark Phoenix again.

And Jean killed herself when she recovered part of her to protect her friends and family; not the make-up with the Shi-ar Empire.

[Muffinman]

again none of this is relevant to Cyclops being a disappointment.

It is relevant. They are saying that Cyclops is not a disappointment, but blackbolt, storm, and the scarlet witch are.

I am not the biggest cyclops fan but I have to admit, during messiah complex, second coming, etc. he made some astoundingly tough calls and they were planned out like no other. There is no way any other leader of the x-men: be it Storm, Rogue, Wolverine, Magneto, Xavier... kitty (lol) could have the mutants make it out like Cyke did.

Was he the most lovey dovey, tolerant, coddling leader? No. He has never been the warmest individual and when taking up the helm in leading the mutant race he put all of his personal feelings beside for the good of the dying race. There is no way storms leadership wouldn't have gotten them all killed. And I say that since her leadership is the most recent that we have seen and it was pitiful. (Not really counting kitty)

[dragonmp93]

I think the stark difference between the characters you mentioned and Cyclops is that they all tried to redeem themselves by at least acknowledging their approach prior to changing wasn't the best one. Cyclops never seemed to do this and kept spiraling towards some would say was that of a villain .



Xavier taught the xmen what they needed to do to survive in a world that hated and feared them. if not for his training those kids magneto would have killed humans off years ago. and no one said he was perfect but his ideas towards interaction between mutants and humans were. Cyclops killed that perception if reality and the hopes of achieving that when he murdered xavier

The Scarlet Witch committed a mutant genocide back then before Cyclops turned "EVIL"(TM); and that i doubt that the Professor being alive would have stopped Blackbolt from committing another.

[Ulfhammer]

Just realized this thread is a dupe. There's already a Cyclops appreciation thread.