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  1. #6556
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    i mean rogue's greatest accomplishment as a villain was ruining an avenger's life so maybe to x-fans she was always a hero
    *muttley laugh*

    Yeah

    *muttley laugh*

  2. #6557
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    She got that status by being the third string antagonist of one of, if not the most iconic X-Men series of all-time (PS/DPS), and then by being the main bad guy of Kitty's comic debut. During that whole time, she was (like most comic bad guys of the time) cartoonishly evil. Torturing people for giggles, exploding horses, releasing rapid dogs against kidnapping victims. She was one step away from snickering as Shaw tied helpless virgins to railroad tracks (which given the HFC's fondness for bondage may have happened at some point).

    I take away Emma's time as a villain with the HFC because she was never less interesting. She was another cut and paste stupidly evil villain with no more motivation than "hurt people for giggles". She was just another pin from the X-Men bowling ball to knock over, fully interchangeable with Shaw, Leland, Pierce, or Selene.
    But she's interesting as a hero because she went through that phase. Plus the White Queen outfit and look work very well for a villains cover because people recognize her as the Hellfire Club White Queen.
    And we have Magneto, Callisto, Jean herself. The cover is about famous villains and she's recognized as such during her HF times. It works without much malice behind it in my opinion.

  3. #6558
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Was that really 2001? Damn time flies.
    Yeah, ignoring Xorneto, Eve of Destruction in 2001 was the last time that Erik was an actual villain. Although, for some things that i heard about Bunn Magneto make him sound similar to Ennis Punisher (a serial killer that goes after villains only).
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  4. #6559
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogvampire View Post
    Jean Grey is also on the cover too though. Also maybe Gambit and Rogue aren't on the cover because they weren't bad guys for that long.
    Its a cover of characters who Marvel wants to recognize were at one point antagonists. Its not a cover of all current X-Men that were actually at one point antagonists nor a cover of characters Marvel considers antagonists now. Magneto and Emma were both on the protagonist covers of HoX and PoX as was Mystique and yes antagonist covers too. Marvel by in large really doesn't want fans to consider that Rogue and Gambit were ever antagonists, just misguided.

    As a fan of Lorna it makes me miss the days a decade and a half ago in terms of Lorna she was promoted as both a B list protagonist and B list antagonist at the same time in regard to Marvel merch and promotion. Today not so much today where she wasn't on any HoX or PoX cover. Sometimes its good to be seen as being able to go both ways pardon the pun.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-12-2019 at 01:43 PM.

  5. #6560
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogvampire View Post
    Jean Grey is also on the cover too though. Also maybe Gambit and Rogue aren't on the cover because they weren't bad guys for that long.
    Dark Phoenix is on the cover. Big difference.

    I'm actually surprised Dark Phoenix Scott isn't on there considering everything that came afterwards. It literally shaped X-Men comics for like four years.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  6. #6561
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Well Emma can't be there twice, so you can't put Popeyes Chicken Sandwich Scott on the cover because he'd have no one to strangle.
    Our main character, a socially awkward outcast, gains newfound confidence and arrogance before committing a string of horrid acts. He then wears a fancy suit and proceeds to dance like a maniac to music that isn't actually there playing around him.

  7. #6562
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    The White Queen is iconic. But of course people are taking that variant cover as a way to assume Emma is being shit on again, because without that going assumption what is there to talk about? Give me a break.

    Also, Emma is not a villain at present. She has been clearly presented as affiliated with the X-Men and Krakoa as of HoX #3. Same with Magneto and they both made the cover. Why? Because, as people have said, their villain eras are iconic and are being recognized in a time-spanning rogues gallery picture. The characters remain X-Men in the ongoing narrative. You don't see people complaining when Jean gets an umpteenth Dark Phoenix variant.
    Last edited by powerpax; 09-12-2019 at 01:46 PM.

  8. #6563
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The White Queen is iconic. But of course people are taking that variant cover as a way to assume Emma is being shit on again, because without that going assumption what is there to talk about? Give me a break.
    Yo, I'm right here.

    You want to address what I said or not?
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  9. #6564
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Yo, I'm right here.

    You want to address what I said or not?
    I just did.

  10. #6565
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I just did.
    Not really. You just complained about me complaining.

    I'm upset because Emma was a villain for 10 years, and a hero for 25, yet she's on the villain page yet again. All for an "iconic" event that she was barely involved in.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #6566
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I'm upset because Emma was a villain for 10 years, and a hero for 25, yet she's on the villain page yet again. All for an "iconic" event that she was barely involved in.
    Emma has been a morally complex character for her entire run as a hero, and her time as the White Queen and a villain has informed the bulk of her stories and how people relate to her. This was the case in Generation X, it was the case in NXM and it's been the case ever since.

    You're mad that the White Queen is acknowledged in any way because you are high on a persecution complex over the character, and last I checked have apparently convinced yourself that the best thing for Emma Frost is for almost none of the last 19 years to have happened. As a fan of the character myself I can only say I find that insane. Emma would not be a fraction as popular as she is today without Grant Morrison's New X-Men and several other subsequent creator runs. You know it, I know it. Those books made her incredibly integral to the franchise. Some bad times post-AVX don't change that. We've all had characters we like who've had it rough sometimes. Psylocke spent a huge chunk of the last 30 years reduced to a buttfloss thong! But characters bounce back. Emma has.

    Seeing conspiracies in a frickin' classic villains variant cover is ridiculous. And BTW, half the stuff you keep namechecking from recent years that's so horrible for Emma? Most of the general public has no idea it happened because those books sucked and readership was low. I certainly don't know much about them, and I don't care. Neither do they.

    The writing has moved on. The books have moved on. So has the character. Get over it and stop seeing veiled insults in one of the character's most iconic lewks being honored in a throwaway variant cover, same as Magneto or Jean.

  12. #6567
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Emma has been a morally complex character for her entire run as a hero, and her time as the White Queen and a villain has informed the bulk of her stories and how people relate to her. This was the case in Generation X, it was the case in NXM and it's been the case ever since.

    You're mad that the White Queen is acknowledged in any way because you are high on a persecution complex over the character, and last I checked have apparently convinced yourself that the best thing for Emma Frost is for almost none of the last 19 years to have happened. As a fan of the character myself I can only say I find that insane. Emma would not be a fraction as popular as she is today without Grant Morrison's New X-Men and several other subsequent creator runs. You know it, I know it. Those books made her incredibly integral to the franchise. Some bad times post-AVX don't change that. We've all had characters we like who've had it rough sometimes. Psylocke spent a huge chunk of the last 30 years reduced to a buttfloss thong! But characters bounce back. Emma has.

    Seeing conspiracies in a frickin' classic villains variant cover is ridiculous. And BTW, half the stuff you keep namechecking from recent years that's so horrible for Emma? Most of the general public has no idea it happened because those books sucked and readership was low. I certainly don't know much about them, and I don't care. Neither do they.

    The writing has moved on. The books have moved on. So has the character. Get over it and stop seeing veiled insults in one of the character's most iconic lewks being honored in a throwaway variant cover, same as Magneto or Jean.
    I'm glad you were able to ignore the last few years of comics. It helps knowing that you have no idea why Emma fans are upset, yet want to complain about them being upset.

    Here's a quick lesson in comics: CANON MATTERS.

    It doesn't matter if the writer and ten of his buddies were the only ones who read it. If it went past the Editor-in-Chief's desk, it is CANON until someone says it isn't. So it doesn't matter if IvX, Blue, or the other related stuff didn't sell, it is still canon that Marvel backtracked on Cyclops being Hitler when the Inhumans Netflix series failed, and threw Emma under the bus for it. Every showing she has had in a X-Men book since then (with the exception of Black) has been awful for the character, and her history means that Marvel can just have her be stupid evil again with a flimsy justification that makes everything from Gen X onwards a complete waste of time.

    The poster just shows that Morrison's run is far less important to the history of the X-Men then PS/DPS, which makes sense. It also means that nothing matters but nostalgia, and they are more than willing to destroy 25 years of character development for that nostalgia.

    I can't see how you can be a fan of the character and not realize that. The condescending attitude about it doesn't help either.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #6568
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    I mean, it's just a cover with villains. She was a villain. She's on the cover.

    She's sporting a big X on her costume in HoX, she's safe now.

  14. #6569
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I'm glad you were able to ignore the last few years of comics. It helps knowing that you have no idea why Emma fans are upset, yet want to complain about them being upset.

    Here's a quick lesson in comics: CANON MATTERS.

    It doesn't matter if the writer and ten of his buddies were the only ones who read it. If it went past the Editor-in-Chief's desk, it is CANON until someone says it isn't. So it doesn't matter if IvX, Blue, or the other related stuff didn't sell, it is still canon that Marvel backtracked on Cyclops being Hitler when the Inhumans Netflix series failed, and threw Emma under the bus for it. Every showing she has had in a X-Men book since then (with the exception of Black) has been awful for the character, and her history means that Marvel can just have her be stupid evil again with a flimsy justification that makes everything from Gen X onwards a complete waste of time.

    The poster just shows that Morrison's run is far less important to the history of the X-Men then PS/DPS, which makes sense. It also means that nothing matters but nostalgia, and they are more than willing to destroy 25 years of character development for that nostalgia.

    I can't see how you can be a fan of the character and not realize that. The condescending attitude about it doesn't help either.
    In an ideal world i would agreed with you, but sadly we aren't on that world. so i had to learn to ignore or let go certain things in order to continue liking my favorite X-Man, it sucks, but it's the lesser evil.
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  15. #6570
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Emma just had the bad luck of being a villain on a very iconic X-men story. I think that's the issue and reason behind her appearance on the cover.
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