View Poll Results: Should "The Dream" be the central value of the X-Men again?

Voters
49. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, X-Men should go back to its founding values

    32 65.31%
  • No, coexistence is outdated and they need to move on from it

    17 34.69%
Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 85
  1. #1
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    3,738

    Default POLL: Should "The Dream" Come Back Post-Krakoa

    A big part of the establishing of Krakoa in HOXPOX was the reveal that the Dream, mutants coexisting with humans, as established for 60 years of X-Men history, was actually a lie: that the real plan all along was actually to create an immortal mutant nation with Magneto and Moira before the X-Men as a team were even first created, and that everything that had happened during the entire publication history of the franchise was actually just a stopgap to set things up for this mutant nation. Should the franchise bring that core ideal back to being the centerpiece of the X-Men franchise, now that the current centerpiece, Krakoa, is going to be going away?

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    A big part of the establishing of Krakoa in HOXPOX was the reveal that the Dream, mutants coexisting with humans, as established for 60 years of X-Men history, was actually a lie: that the real plan all along was actually to create an immortal mutant nation with Magneto and Moira before the X-Men as a team were even first created, and that everything that had happened during the entire publication history of the franchise was actually just a stopgap to set things up for this mutant nation. Should the franchise bring that core ideal back to being the centerpiece of the X-Men franchise, now that the current centerpiece, Krakoa, is going to be going away?
    Sure but I don't see Krakoa as an antithesis to that goal. The average mutant citizen should still want that goal irregardless of Xavier's true intentions.

    The X-men is the only Marvel ip built around expansion. So having the younger mutants strive to live up to that goal is a good way to go.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; Today at 07:06 AM.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    3,738

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Sure but I don't see Krakoa as an antithesis to that goal. The average mutant citizen should still want that goal irregardless of Xavier's true intentions.

    The X-men is the only Marvel ip built around expansion. So having the younger mutants strive to live up to that goal is a good way to go.
    Aside from a few side mentions was that really the case during Krakoa? 99 percent of it was young mutants talking about how great Krakoa was. There was even an entire book of humans fanboying over how great Krakoa was

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,476

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    A big part of the establishing of Krakoa in HOXPOX was the reveal that the Dream, mutants coexisting with humans, as established for 60 years of X-Men history, was actually a lie: that the real plan all along was actually to create an immortal mutant nation with Magneto and Moira before the X-Men as a team were even first created, and that everything that had happened during the entire publication history of the franchise was actually just a stopgap to set things up for this mutant nation. Should the franchise bring that core ideal back to being the centerpiece of the X-Men franchise, now that the current centerpiece, Krakoa, is going to be going away?
    It wasn't a lie, Moira's past lives show the X-Men is what Xavier would create regardless of whether Moira helped him, or got him to agree to the Krakoa idea or instead threw in with Magneto. It just wasn't the whole truth in this specific timeline.

  5. #5
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    17,184

    Default

    I dunno. I feel like the dream became almost unreachable once the extinction level threat stories started. Maybe around Decimation. It feels like it's been mostly about surviving since then. If we can take a break from immediate extinction threats then maybe coexistence can come into view again.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
    Krakoa, Arakko, and Otherworld forever!

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,865

    Default

    I will also point out that the only 'truth' of life ten was that Moira wanted Charles and Magneto to work together and she had to push Charles to extremes to move him away from his dream but there really was not much of a plan beyond that alliance and establishing a homeland. Working with Sinister and dabbling in cloning was something Charles (and Magneto) engaged in without Moira's input.

    Anyway, I would like the teams, and characters in general, to have differing ideas and one of those I would like to see returned is at least one of the groups wanting to embody Xavier's dream.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Dante Milton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    It wasn’t a lie. The Moira’s Journal data page from HoXPoX detailed how she struggled to get Xavier and Magneto on board with her plan. Xavier (and the X-Men who weren’t even aware of Moira’s plan) was still very much committed to his dream. It was the several successful genocide attempts that finally swayed him. Even in the Krakoa books most writers pointed out that Xavier still believed in his dream and that it would turn out to be a liability, like the last Hellfire Gala.

    Anyway. While the idea of co-existence is noble and something worth working towards, the problem with Xavier’s methods about obtaining that dream were very concerned with respectability politics and assimilationism, and those are very outdated ideologies. So, no to Xavier’s dream, but I would like to see something new.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    4,523

    Default

    Well, humans and mutants live on the same planet and sometimes they bump into each other… So they must find a way to coexist.

    Anyway, it’s about what an author wants to tell, mutants are just an allegory of “the others”. On this planet, there are just humans who are also “the others”… What would it mean that there is no way to coexist, as different as the other is? End of the story.

    In the anime Frieren, there are daemons and the rest (humans, elves…): the daemons kill the rest, it’s their nature, and even if they want to change, they cannot. Once you realize it, what is it more to say?
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Master of Sound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    9,503

    Default

    Lets take a step forward, not 3 steps back.

    The new books already seem some steps back, lets not make it worse.
    "COURAGE, DON'T YOU DARE LET ME DOWN"
    ==================================================
    ==================================================

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Aside from a few side mentions was that really the case during Krakoa? 99 percent of it was young mutants talking about how great Krakoa was. There was even an entire book of humans fanboying over how great Krakoa was
    Sabretooth's first miniseries involved a riot over the 3 laws and how they were enforced. So I'm sure there were characters that weren't buying the hype. Most weren't the focus.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    3,738

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    It wasn't a lie, Moira's past lives show the X-Men is what Xavier would create regardless of whether Moira helped him, or got him to agree to the Krakoa idea or instead threw in with Magneto. It just wasn't the whole truth in this specific timeline.
    Yes but the continuity is, in the main timeline, Xaviers dream was never actually anything but a delay for Krakoa, and always has been. Every published comic talking about it was actually untrue and part of a master plan. It's almost as big a retcon to Xaviers character as Moira's retcon was to her

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Dante Milton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    Do people not understand that Krakoa was itself a form of co-existence. Yes mutants had their own nation, but they still very much interacted with humanity politically and economically.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    3,738

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Sabretooth's first miniseries involved a riot over the 3 laws and how they were enforced. So I'm sure there were characters that weren't buying the hype. Most weren't the focus.
    Gonna have to raise an eyebrow at Oya, Nekra, Toad, Nanny, Orphan Maker and co as being supporters of human mutant coexistence

  14. #14

    Default

    I kinda think... in ORDER to survive... the Dream has to come back.

    If that scene with Gregor turning against Orchis and saving Cyclops wasn't an allegory, then I don't know what is. But I think the message needs to update. The X-Men need to convince humanity that the only way for either to survive is together.

    Krakoa was closer to Magneto's messaging than anything. The amount of "We Are Better Than You" energy was clear throughout the entire era. "You have new gods now." Humans cancelling that message was inevitable.

    But I don't think The Dream can be carried by Xavier. I think we need to retire Xavier, Magneto, and Moira as dream bearers and hand the reigns entirely to Cyclops, Storm, and a third more wild-card ideology. Of course, I think Polaris, but I think most of you would argue her IP is not quite set up to match those levels yet. Perhaps Emma Frost. I'd leave Jean completely out of the trio equation because she already has too much going on with the Phoenix and self-resurrections and she just needs to do her own thing.
    Queen of Mutants, Mistress of Magnetism, Magnetrix and the MII, Pestilence of the Horsemen of Apocalypse, the Krakoan Oracle and creator of the Sanctus Sacrum Tournament Key, the Threshold Seed Shaper, Brood Queen of the Fall of the House of X, Lorna Sally Dane, Ph.D., of the House of M, Polaris of the X-Men

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I dunno. I feel like the dream became almost unreachable once the extinction level threat stories started. Maybe around Decimation. It feels like it's been mostly about surviving since then. If we can take a break from immediate extinction threats then maybe coexistence can come into view again.
    They can't. Because they have to constantly dial up the danger to mutant kind for the sales that the franchise ended up in the situation. But at the same time, this makes the dream unreachable and something like Utopia and Krakoa are the only logical alternatives in the situation where mutants are constantly facing extinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Milton View Post
    Do people not understand that Krakoa was itself a form of co-existence. Yes mutants had their own nation, but they still very much interacted with humanity politically and economically.
    Most people's idea of Xavier's dream was of mutants being accepted as humans and integrated into human society and not just a separate nation state formed exclusively for mutants. Krakoa is more separate, but equal.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; Today at 08:08 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •