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  1. #12286
    Astonishing Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Hickman’s sinister is completely original! Oh wait. That’s on gillen...
    well, the queer-coded villain is also not the most unique creation...Disney does it for a very very long time.

    (although I very much enjoy campy Sinister. now that there is so much more queer representation it is a lot less offensive than, let's say, in the 1980s and 1990s).

  2. #12287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Black Swan = Emma Frost = Saturnyne.

    I really think Hickman only writes two types of women: "the cold ice queen" (see above) & "the mother" (sue storm or jean grey)

    his male characters also do not seem less archetypical and cliché: a GREAT man (with big balls) burdened by his genius level intellect and his responsibility to change the world!! (Magneto, Xavier, Reed Richards)

    Emotions are only something for babies!
    His Thanos=Apocalypse.

  3. #12288
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Hickman’s sinister is completely original! Oh wait. That’s on gillen...
    Not sure how a writer following a previous writer's characterization is supposed to be a bad thing here

  4. #12289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Black Swan = Emma Frost = Saturnyne.
    Hickman has barely written Emma, she is essentially Duggan’s character in this era, so most of Hickman’s Emma is just window dressings from Morrison’s take. Signs and signifiers of Morrison’s Emma, if you will.

    Saturnyne and Black Swan are also completely different characters with very different motivations, perspectives on power and places within their own internal hierarchies. If anything, Black Swan and Isca seem to be quite analogous - i.e the most humane and sympathetic of the uncanny valley; the comic equivalent of Charon the boatman, leading the humans through an known unknown. East of West had a pretty diverse range of female characters if I remember correctly. However, nobody reads Hickman comics for deep characterisations - you read him for interesting takes on power, politics and technology, and the conceptual points of interest that relate to whatever theme he wants to drive home.

    This is essentially why it’s a good thing there are books like X-Factor to feed off of this main book

  5. #12290
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Black Swan = Emma Frost = Saturnyne.

    I really think Hickman only writes two types of women: "the cold ice queen" (see above) & "the mother" (sue storm or jean grey)

    his male characters also do not seem less archetypical and cliché: a GREAT man (with big balls) burdened by his genius level intellect and his responsibility to change the world!! (Magneto, Xavier, Reed Richards)

    Emotions are only something for babies!
    His Moira defies mother and ice cold queen characterization. She's like a soldier(?).

    Also his Jean Emma issue with Dautterman showed all types of emotions, like literally showed in the art, not by speech balloons.

  6. #12291
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    Is Mystique a "cold ice queen" too? Or Alia Gregor? Monet I can give you. War also wasn't really a motherly type, she was more of a revenge fueled person, but then again, she didn't have that much characterization. Same for Genesis, who was more of the "wise dictator" type than anything else.

  7. #12292
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    I'd subscribe Mystique and Alia to women scorned. No? Two sides of the same coin.

    They're both pissed off at the X-Men for their dead lovers.
    Alia works to destroy them through Nimrod and Mystique will probably destroy them from the inside.
    Last edited by zvrk; 02-26-2021 at 07:34 AM. Reason: my brain does more thinking

  8. #12293
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Black Swan = Emma Frost = Saturnyne.

    I really think Hickman only writes two types of women: "the cold ice queen" (see above) & "the mother" (sue storm or jean grey)

    his male characters also do not seem less archetypical and cliché: a GREAT man (with big balls) burdened by his genius level intellect and his responsibility to change the world!! (Magneto, Xavier, Reed Richards)

    Emotions are only something for babies!
    I can't disagree with the similarities between those three.

    I guess it depends on which Hickman book you've read. There's some similarities between the men in New Avengers and SHIELD. I haven't read East of West and Secret Warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    His Moira defies mother and ice cold queen characterization. She's like a soldier(?).

    Also his Jean Emma issue with Dautterman showed all types of emotions, like literally showed in the art, not by speech balloons.
    Honestly, the Jeans from the ORCHIS mission, the Sabretooth trial, X-Men #1, GS X-Men Jean/Emma and X-Men #17 all feel different but people display different emotions in different situations.
    "Cable was right!"

  9. #12294
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Not sure how a writer following a previous writer's characterization is supposed to be a bad thing here
    yeah, that's kind of what Big Two comics are all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spit and Syntax View Post
    Hickman has barely written Emma, she is essentially Duggan’s character in this era, so most of Hickman’s Emma is just window dressings from Morrison’s take. Signs and signifiers of Morrison’s Emma, if you will.

    Saturnyne and Black Swan are also completely different characters with very different motivations, perspectives on power and places within their own internal hierarchies. If anything, Black Swan and Isca seem to be quite analogous - i.e the most humane and sympathetic of the uncanny valley; the comic equivalent of Charon the boatman, leading the humans through an known unknown. East of West had a pretty diverse range of female characters if I remember correctly. However, nobody reads Hickman comics for deep characterisations - you read him for interesting takes on power, politics and technology, and the conceptual points of interest that relate to whatever theme he wants to drive home.

    This is essentially why it’s a good thing there are books like X-Factor to feed off of this main book
    I think there is truth to the fact that Hickman is a writer who focuses more on high concepts and plots than delving into characters, and when he does he seems more comfortable writing men. But even so, I think the issues with his female written characters are a bit overblown. I haven't read East of West in a while and I'm not caught up, but there were some pretty cool female characters there. I haven't re-read Black Monday Murders in a while because the knowledge it is shelved indefinitely bummed me out. And there aren't a lot of similarities between Saturnyne, Black Swan, his Moira revamp, Destiny, Alia Gregor, etc. and he writes Storm well in the instances he's used her.

    I also don't see too many similarities between his Thanos and Apocalypse aside from the fact that they've always had broadly similar functions.

  10. #12295
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Not sure how a writer following a previous writer's characterization is supposed to be a bad thing here
    It’s not. I was just following the current thread on Hickman’s lack of originality on characterization

  11. #12296
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Not sure how a writer following a previous writer's characterization is supposed to be a bad thing here
    People defend when writers not do this, Gillen isn't the original characterization

  12. #12297
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    People defend when writers not do this, Gillen isn't the original characterization
    Yep!

    Previous writers have gotten certain characters all wrong, and when following writers carry on a bad trend & don't bother to do any research prior, that is a bad thing.

    That's how we keep getting white Monet. for 1 example.

  13. #12298
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Is the previous characterization for Sinister worth mourning the loss of?

    Personally I say no.

  14. #12299
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Is the previous characterization for Sinister worth mourning the loss of?

    Personally I say no.
    At least he's still a misogynist.
    "Cable was right!"

  15. #12300
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Is the previous characterization for Sinister worth mourning the loss of?

    Personally I say no.
    Make a guy that worked for nazis funny is not cool

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