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  1. #10021
    BANNED misty101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    That is semantics but it is the exact same thing,a duplicate of a biological body is a clone.I mean on the surface I get what you mean let the duplicate be the vessel or 'sleeve' (altered carbon lingo) of a single consciousness of a mutant, while a clone should be a separate unit of different consciousness.However that in practice is just a quagmire. That's almost like saying the sleeves are a hive mind sequentially and the clones are not.It makes no real sense ultimately unless you want mutants on Krakoa to engage in duplication to create moral dilemmas and existential crises.It only works at telling a deep ethical thought not at surface level funfare
    and what exactly does that have to do with "upcoming xbook art teases"?! Hmm??

  2. #10022
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    That is semantics but it is the exact same thing
    No it's not.

  3. #10023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    No it's not.
    So duplicate is different from clone? Even if you as you put it have a duplicate with one continuous consciousness meet a clone with a different consciousness on one page. You think you can convince the reader to see a difference when one tells the other 'we may look the same but you're something different'..?

    This is a pure hypothetical but even Nightcrawler in X-Men 07 has his head spinning with duplicates now create a Nightcrawler clone and feed him his pre death in SComing nemories only.Does it get any less crazier for 'duplicate' Nightcrawler? We need to get real here
    Last edited by Rev9; 08-05-2020 at 04:27 AM.

  4. #10024
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    So if an identical twin died you’d just leave them dead, because you already have one person with that DNA?
    Well since the memories are different, it’s enough to warrant a second resurrection right?

  5. #10025
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    So duplicate is different from clone? Even if you as you put it have a duplicate with one continuous consciousness meet a clone with a different consciousness on one page. You think you can convince the reader to see a difference when one tells the other 'we may look the same but you're something different'
    Yes? Do people not realize Madelyne isn't Jean Grey when she shows up? Or Cable and Stryfe? Laura and Gabby?

    And I wasn't even talking about whether readers will get confused or not. That's completely besides the point.

  6. #10026
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Well since the memories are different, it’s enough to warrant a second resurrection right?
    Pretty much this.

    Also I constantly keep thinking there's new art teases but there's not.

  7. #10027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yes? Do people not realize Madelyne isn't Jean Grey when she shows up? Or Cable and Stryfe? Laura and Gabby?

    And I wasn't even talking about whether readers will get confused or not. That's completely besides the point.
    Obviously at a cursory level they are different on page they may have different attire or hairstyles to tell them apart,sometimes they show their powers differently because for example Maddie was brought to life by different means.However the internal justification between them is moot on paper.That is why you always have weird statements like ,'Scott will never love you like he loves me' or something like 'you're a poor imitation of me'. I am not quoting verbatim but the idea is to have fun on the page for the characters showing hubris or contempt or fascination or whatever but the reader who has the panoramic view it's really moot.

    Another thing is I don't think Maddie or Stryfe were themselves cloned by Xmen. Unless you have some narcissistic compulsion to clone yourself just coz you're bored or want a village of yourself like Sinister ,Krakoa steers clear of engaging in this.They know Maddie and Stryfe did not choose to be cloned,which dovetails into the reasoning behind Krakoa not wanting to unnecessarily duplicate Krakoans precisely not to create that sort of weirdness of being inconsequential as characters. You rather have one Logan making a point than 3.It serves no long term purpose
    Last edited by Rev9; 08-05-2020 at 05:05 AM.

  8. #10028

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    nor are Martin and Gary Kemp a single mutant With two bodies.
    Yeah, that was just a rumour started by Duran Duran during their 1980s rivalry.

  9. #10029

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    Thanks for all the insight everyone it's made some things clear and something's not. Like identical twins genetically are clones but they aren't literally since they have the same dna. A duplicate I know understand is a direct replication but that I don't see how it can be possible. If the person is brought back with memories on file but the real one was locked away for let's say a year wasn't the old one still obtaining new memories even as the "duplicate" was being born with old memories.

    Then in fallen angel I could be wrong but for some reason I remember Laura mentioning feeling a certain way because she was a clone but she's not a clone because taylor showed she had a mother so her dna isn't 100% logan which would make him her real father but Gabby is her clone. I just think the whole clone duplicate memories things need to be addressed because with Maddie running around and other stuff it's just confusing overall now. Then you have the cuckoo's I don't think they are clones because someone else dna was used with Emma but I see how they can be seen as clones of each other since it wasn't a natural birth and all their x-genea seem the same. There is no power variance between them but I guess that could also be expected of identical twins. Just like if identical twins have children their children are considered half siblings genetically because of the exact same dna they get from the identical twin parents.
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  10. #10030
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thanks for all the insight everyone it's made some things clear and something's not. Like identical twins genetically are clones but they aren't literally since they have the same dna. A duplicate I know understand is a direct replication but that I don't see how it can be possible. If the person is brought back with memories on file but the real one was locked away for let's say a year wasn't the old one still obtaining new memories even as the "duplicate" was being born with old memories.

    Then in fallen angel I could be wrong but for some reason I remember Laura mentioning feeling a certain way because she was a clone but she's not a clone because taylor showed she had a mother so her dna isn't 100% logan which would make him her real father but Gabby is her clone. I just think the whole clone duplicate memories things need to be addressed because with Maddie running around and other stuff it's just confusing overall now. Then you have the cuckoo's I don't think they are clones because someone else dna was used with Emma but I see how they can be seen as clones of each other since it wasn't a natural birth and all their x-genea seem the same. There is no power variance between them but I guess that could also be expected of identical twins. Just like if identical twins have children their children are considered half siblings genetically because of the exact same dna they get from the identical twin parents.
    I think you are spot on ,if there are no guidelines developed it will lose meaning.I think Laura is Logan's daughter, so she is no clone, The cookoos I think are identical quintuplets but I don't know if they had a surrogate carrying Emma's eggs or were incubated to full growth like Krakoa now does.I won't comment on that coz I never read their backstory.

    Though Krakoa's process as you mention locking away the original underscores my point ,if for example hypothetically they find a way to clone Kitty ,now is the original Kitty if resurrected another way entitled to the memories she missed while her clone lived in the interim? In a way yes and in a way no.It is an ethical problem of major proportions.We the readers
    may pick one of the possibilities but just because we picked that she is entitled ,does not mean for example if she had her clone engaging in a mission with Colossus where out of jealousy she had Domino die out of spite that the real Kitty should go and apologize to Domino's new clone a) because she didn't do it herself b) because new Domino is not the old Domino who died technically
    Last edited by Rev9; 08-05-2020 at 05:52 AM.

  11. #10031
    Mighty Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thanks for all the insight everyone it's made some things clear and something's not. Like identical twins genetically are clones but they aren't literally since they have the same dna. A duplicate I know understand is a direct replication but that I don't see how it can be possible. If the person is brought back with memories on file but the real one was locked away for let's say a year wasn't the old one still obtaining new memories even as the "duplicate" was being born with old memories.

    Then in fallen angel I could be wrong but for some reason I remember Laura mentioning feeling a certain way because she was a clone but she's not a clone because taylor showed she had a mother so her dna isn't 100% logan which would make him her real father but Gabby is her clone. I just think the whole clone duplicate memories things need to be addressed because with Maddie running around and other stuff it's just confusing overall now. Then you have the cuckoo's I don't think they are clones because someone else dna was used with Emma but I see how they can be seen as clones of each other since it wasn't a natural birth and all their x-genea seem the same. There is no power variance between them but I guess that could also be expected of identical twins. Just like if identical twins have children their children are considered half siblings genetically because of the exact same dna they get from the identical twin parents.
    No, still a clone, just one that has some of her mothers (Mother here defined as surrogate/scientist who made her.) DNA for some unexplained reason. (Which is a pretty unmoored, completely at odds with her mini series origin story retcon, which I'm not sure is going to stick.)
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  12. #10032
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thanks for all the insight everyone it's made some things clear and something's not. Like identical twins genetically are clones but they aren't literally since they have the same dna. A duplicate I know understand is a direct replication but that I don't see how it can be possible. If the person is brought back with memories on file but the real one was locked away for let's say a year wasn't the old one still obtaining new memories even as the "duplicate" was being born with old memories.

    Then in fallen angel I could be wrong but for some reason I remember Laura mentioning feeling a certain way because she was a clone but she's not a clone because taylor showed she had a mother so her dna isn't 100% logan which would make him her real father but Gabby is her clone. I just think the whole clone duplicate memories things need to be addressed because with Maddie running around and other stuff it's just confusing overall now. Then you have the cuckoo's I don't think they are clones because someone else dna was used with Emma but I see how they can be seen as clones of each other since it wasn't a natural birth and all their x-genea seem the same. There is no power variance between them but I guess that could also be expected of identical twins. Just like if identical twins have children their children are considered half siblings genetically because of the exact same dna they get from the identical twin parents.
    Maddie confuses things bc she was created as a Jean clone and even had some of her memories (although very incomplete). When she died, Jean absorbed her memories and persona, essentially merging the three (along with the Phoenix clone) into one being. Jean after Inferno was an amagalm of all 3. Thats why she is redundant and one reason why they wouldnt resurrect her bc those memories and experiences already exist with Jean. Honestly in light of the whole resurrecting process we know have, what happened with Maddie after Jean "died" seemed like a prototype for what we would later get. She seemingly died and 2 clones replaced her. She returned and that was resolved when those memories were passed on to her

    The Maddie that existed in the 90s wasnt even the original. She was some psychic ghost that X-man created. The current version is that ghost having finally found a body to inhabit. Its a human that was genetically altered to look like Maddie. Her mutant status itself is questionable bc of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    No, still a clone, just one that has some of her mothers (Mother here defined as surrogate/scientist who made her.) DNA for some unexplained reason. (Which is a pretty unmoored, completely at odds with her mini series origin story retcon, which I'm not sure is going to stick.)
    Her origin mini specified that she's not really a clone. Marvel only uses that word for marketing and to simplify her origin
    Last edited by Havok83; 08-05-2020 at 05:59 AM.

  13. #10033
    Mighty Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Her origin mini specified that she's not really a clone. Marvel only uses that word for marketing and to simplify her origin
    Okay Genetic twin, whatever, almost the same thing; save duplicating the existing X chromosome. (Hence why she is typically called a clone.)
    Last edited by Nazrel; 08-05-2020 at 06:25 AM.
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  14. #10034

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Okay Genetic twin, whatever, almost the same thing.
    some would say in-vitro fertilization isn't natural (i'm not one of them) The baby was created but still carried to term naturally. Is that a form of cloning?
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  15. #10035
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Still no art teases...?
    Okies...I'll check back in a couple of days, after you all work out whatever that is.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

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