Future Of The Bat Family?

[Badou]

EVERYONE has their own pet characters, and EVERYONE will complain about their favorite being "denigrated" at some point. For example, I'm a huge Stephanie Brown fan and I could go on and on about how crappy DC's treatment of her has been in the past. Tim fans will likely complain about his treatment in the New 52 pre-Eternal (with some legitimate cause), Cassandra Cain fans probably have the most cause to be angry at this point since their favorite isn't appearing AT ALL, nor is she even being MENTIONED, and so on. The point is, it's not just Dick. It happens to EVERYONE at one point or another.

I think the problem with Dick though is that before the reboot he was arguably DC's most featured character. It was probably the most exposure the character has gotten in a long time, maybe ever. So to go from all that to just appearing in Nightwing in the New 52 was a very steep fall. Which we all generally expected as nothing can replace being Batman, but what made the transition to the New 52 so bad/painful, as compared to a Steph or a Cass situation, was the slow and spread out process of seeing important pieces of his character and history being picked from him and given to other characters or just erased while he is left with less and less. As the reboot continues to unfold we are still learning just how much he has lost, from history, friends, experiences, stories and general standing in the DCU. Finally with Grayson it seems they have stopped some the bleeding and are trying to build something up for the character. It was a much needed step.

Steph and Cass fans have every right to be just as upset, but their situation remained pretty consistent from the start. They were taken off the table completely and are being rebooted from the beginning it seems. They didn't really have to see their characters continue to fall further and further as more time went on (though I guess Cass fans experienced that well before the reboot happened after she quit being Batgirl), and even with Tim, who has no question been written far worse than Dick in the reboot, was at least given something like founding and leading the Titans to make up for some of the things he lost. Dick wasn't really given anything to make up for the things they took from him. So he was just Nightwing again, but a shell of what he was before. So it made the situation frustrating as it left the character with very little to work with.

[shingi_70]

It seems like its being fractured and redone to the point that Post eternal we have major changes to the Batverse like what happened with No Man's Land.

[The World]

I wouldn't get to worried over Tim and Jason being better than Dick as these characters are little more than numbers to the company. If Grayson takes off while RHATO and Time continue to be directionless train wrecks with meager numbers the power balance will probably shift in Dicks favor again. We'll see Dick be considered a superior fighter to Jason and better detective than Tim.

Why do you think Batman keeps whipping Superman's ass.

[Godlike13]

I wouldn't get to worried over Tim and Jason being better than Dick as these characters are little more than numbers to the company. If Grayson takes off while RHATO and Time continue to be directionless train wrecks with meager numbers the power balance will probably shift in Dicks favor again. We'll see Dick be considered a superior fighter to Jason and better detective than Tim.

Why do you think Batman keeps whipping Superman's ass.

I don't know, Dick doesn't really need the validation. Fans pretty much know what the deal is with him. There's not much Tim or Jason has done that Dick hasn't already done before, or at least something similar to it.

Thats why they constantly keep telling us how smart Tim is, or bring in Ra's to try an tell us that Jason is special some how though. They're trying to validate these characters, and they'll probably continue to do it. They need to get better at doing it though. The problem is that its mostly just them telling us how Tim or Jason is this or that, so its rather empty validation. They need to let reader make up their own minds about a character from things we see them do, and let us tell them that this character is special.

For example, they like to repeat to us that Tim's the "detective" of the family, but honestly a scene like in Batman and Robin where Dick outs Oberon Sexton was a better show of deduction then anything i have seen from Tim. Tim is usually just given knowledge, and is labelled "detective". When they do that it becomes an empty label.

[Llama Shepherd]

Jason has amnesia to fight ras, finally defeated Ras with his memories

I know what happened, I'm saying it's wasn't very good.

[josai21]

Tim really needs to have a good intelligent storyline again.

By that I mean, have something similar to how he beat Ra's Al Ghul happen. That 'showed' his intelligence rather than 'told.' Writing 101.

[LoneNecromancer]

I wouldn't get to worried over Tim and Jason being better than Dick as these characters are little more than numbers to the company. If Grayson takes off while RHATO and Time continue to be directionless train wrecks with meager numbers the power balance will probably shift in Dicks favor again. We'll see Dick be considered a superior fighter to Jason and better detective than Tim.

Why do you think Batman keeps whipping Superman's ass.

Not lately. I think Supes has beaten down Bats every time they've fought in the New 52.

[LoneNecromancer]

Tim really needs to have a good intelligent storyline again.

By that I mean, have something similar to how he beat Ra's Al Ghul happen. That 'showed' his intelligence rather than 'told.' Writing 101.

Well that was just fanwank and awful.

[Godlike13]

Tim really needs to have a good intelligent storyline again.

By that I mean, have something similar to how he beat Ra's Al Ghul happen. That 'showed' his intelligence rather than 'told.' Writing 101.

U mean the story line where Tim just looked at an old portrait and then just knew that Bruce was still alive and stuck in the past? Ya, i don't know about that. Plus again, it was another instance of them bringing in Ra's to tell us how so and so is special. Because if Ra's says it then it must be legit. Though everybody kicking ninja ass was cool.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

The current direction of Batman is to create a new bat family and let the existing characters move on.

Nightwing is 'dead'. Grayson is in the backdrop of Gotham. Consider it like his Bludhaven thing. Batgirl is on her own. Red Hood is probably going to go full-crazy by Eternal's end. Tim has been on his own for awhile.

The bat family post-Eternal will be Bruce and Damian as Batman and Robin. Harper Rowe, Spoiler, and the others will probably end up with their own team book.

U mean the story line where Tim just looked at an old portrait and then just knew that Bruce was still alive and stuck in the past? Ya, i don't know about that. Plus again, it was another instance of them bringing in Ra's to tell us how so and so is special. Because if Ra's says it then it must be legit. Though everybody kicking ninja ass was cool.

The portrait was filled with clues. A guy holding a box/book with Bruce's bat symbol on it is pretty blatant. You're also ignoring that the mainstream media had just covered an archaeological dig that revealed cave paintings of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman's symbols. That was blatant proof that Bruce was around, even if Fabian accidentally placed it in Iraq instead of Gotham. Iraq is technically more scientifically accurate, but Morrison was writing DC history, not real-life human history. DC history has humans being in North America way before we should have.

[Aioros22]

I wouldn't get to worried over Tim and Jason being better than Dick as these characters are little more than numbers to the company. If Grayson takes off while RHATO and Time continue to be directionless train wrecks with meager numbers the power balance will probably shift in Dicks favor again. We'll see Dick be considered a superior fighter to Jason and better detective than Tim.

Why do you think Batman keeps whipping Superman's ass.

Instead of playing the card "my favorite is better than your favorite" support the good you believe DC does with your favorite so they can do more of it. Voice your concerns but let`s not be defensive.

Grayson doesn`t need validation. Timbo doesn`t need validation. Jason doesn`t need validation. They all add up a touch to the Batman mythos.

[Aioros22]

Honestly, I think this is poor example as it had nothing to do with any author's intent to knock Dick down a peg in order to elevate another character. Altogether more likely: Higgins (and DeFalco) wanted Shiva to be a badass enemy for Dick, one that couldn't be easily dismissed, and one that the fans would accept as being his combat equal. When Tynion got around to writing her, he didn't see her this way and generally wanted to make Jason strong (generally = not at the expense of Grayson). This wasn't some conspiracy on behalf of any combination of editor in chief and/or authors to make Dick look like a chump so Jason could look good; it was merely two different writers interpretations of the fighting prowess of a rogue.

I do, however, agree that each character having their distinct direction could remove quite a bit of this unfortunate overlap.



See, now here is where I have to respectfully disagree. The problem with the new comics (which I am largely over, for the record) isn't that Tim is smarter than Dick nor that Jason is "tougher" (whatever that means) than Dick. The only actual problem was that Tim got to found the Titans and Jason got to be great friends with Starfire and Arsenal. Those points, I'll concede.

As for Tim being smarter, who really cares? Every character should be the best at something. Tim being a boy genius doesn't make Dick any less bright. Jason being an out and out brawler doesn't make Dick a less proficient combatant. Where writers do actually intentionally make Dick look dumb or weak for the benefit of another character, there is a problem for sure, but in an ideal world Dick is a bright guy, but Babs should be smarter because that her thing. Similarly, Tim should be a better detective and I'd be okay with Jason being able to take more of a beating (as I am equating "tough" with something of a tank role here). This doesn't make Dick a weak idiot. He should always, however, be the funniest, most athletic, most easy going, most personable, best leader, and most well adjusted. He doesn't have to be the best at everything. That would be boring and bat-god-ish.

+1 Money.

By the way, I don`t know why Tim being "a better detective" is degrading to Dick all of a sudden. That has been the case since before the reboot. All the Robins excell at some qualities. Grayson is actually the balance between Tim`s brains and Jason`s brawl. But that doesn`t mean none of them can`t be smart, strong, agile or whatever. It just means one will exceel at something. I don`t see anyone bawling at Babs superior tech skills among the family.

I haven`t read Dick in the New52 being comparetively degraded towards Jason or Tim as less smart or less of a figther, so I`ll just consider such notion a mere Fandom argument. Fandom needs to accept one thing: these are different characters with the same figthing background and mentor. While they share a good deal of similarities there should be differences among them. Otherwise I wouldn`t support "the bat family" if they were all the same thing.

So yeah, there`s someone who should be better at a given something. That`s the beauty of such characterization. If most bat writers believe Jason to be the thoughest figther among the brothers, it wouldn`t surprise me. He`s more physical than most, he belonged to gangs, he was getting into street figths before he learned under Batman.

Think of the Bat-brothers as the Ninja Turtles. It`s easier that way.

Leonardo = Dick
Raphael = Jason
Donatello = Tim
Michaellangelo = Damian (Damian isn`t wisecracking, but neither was the original Mirage Mike)

[Godlike13]

The portrait was filled with clues. A guy holding a box/book with Bruce's bat symbol on it is pretty blatant. You're also ignoring that the mainstream media had just covered an archaeological dig that revealed cave paintings of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman's symbols. That was blatant proof that Bruce was around, even if Fabian accidentally placed it in Iraq instead of Gotham. Iraq is technically more scientifically accurate, but Morrison was writing DC history, not real-life human history. DC history has humans being in North America way before we should have.

Tim knew none of that at the time. He looked at an old portrait an just knew that Bruce was alive. Which was what sprang him on his journey. Thats not being smart, or being a detective, thats just Tim knowing something no one could logically know. This was them gifting him knowledge, so he can do what they wanted him to do. And of course it was showed in retrospect, 12 issue in.

[dropkickjake]

Tim knew none of that at the time. He looked at an old portrait an just knew that Bruce was alive. Which was what sprang him on his journey. Thats not being smart, or being a detective, thats just Tim knowing something no one could logically know. This was them gifting him knowledge, so he can do what they wanted him to do. And of course it was showed in retrospect, 12 issue in.

I read as more of an emotional thing. Time, who was most attached to "Robin" emotionally (he didnt want to be batman or grow up to be another hero, but wanted to retire after being a sidekick), simply couldn't believe that Bruce was dead.

[Rakiduam]

Honestly, I think this is poor example as it had nothing to do with any author's intent to knock Dick down a peg in order to elevate another character. Altogether more likely: Higgins (and DeFalco) wanted Shiva to be a badass enemy for Dick, one that couldn't be easily dismissed, and one that the fans would accept as being his combat equal. When Tynion got around to writing her, he didn't see her this way and generally wanted to make Jason strong (generally = not at the expense of Grayson). This wasn't some conspiracy on behalf of any combination of editor in chief and/or authors to make Dick look like a chump so Jason could look good; it was merely two different writers interpretations of the fighting prowess of a rogue.

I do, however, agree that each character having their distinct direction could remove quite a bit of this unfortunate overlap.

So just a happy accident, lucky Jason. Whatever it's intentional or a general disregard for other characters, they are always building up by comparison.

The bat characters are all created in the same shape; they are never going to be the more physically strong so they have to be the smartest, they have to generate empathy so they have to be sympathetic, they have to be leaders because in a group of super powerful people they can contribute with direction.

I think Dick is an established character and Tim was one too before the new 52, Jason has been a few different characters since he was introduced, then in the new 52 they build up Jason and Tim using aspects from Dick and we ended with three very similar characters that can only be distinguished by grades of more and less. It sucks for Dick because they don’t need him to be more so he has to be less than the other two.

More than anything I wish that they had taken advantage of the reboot and use different eye color so they could be differentiated in some definitive way.

The future it's the same, a bunch of character in the same mold, that can be easily replaced, with the same interchangeable relationships and dynamics. And Batman