Detective Comics #958 preview/Discussion

[Alycat]

Does Clayface need to turn evil at all? Since multiple people have been clayface, we could have basil be cured or just stay as a good clayface, and have another person take over as a bad clayface.

I don't want him to turn evil but this is comics. Not many villains stay good.

[Assam]

Another excellent issue! Not counting #950, since that was a prologue and not a proper beginning of an arc, this is probably the strongest start any of Tynion's arcs have had. The opening shown in the preview was excellent, getting to see Bruce actually using the Bruce Wayne persona was refreshing as Hell and reminiscent of better times, Zatanna of course made a great entrance, the art was god tier, the plot seems like its gonna go in some interesting places, and, yeah, the Basil and Cass scene was amazing. I was a bit taken aback at first by Cass reciting her lines so well, but they quickly explained that with her having been practicing. (Still think some ellipses mixed in would have been appropriate though.)

Only two real negatives I can think of here: 1) The new Azrael getting punked as soon as it showed up doesn't exactly inspire fear. 2) MOTHER. Just, Mother. Like, I know Tynion is probably still proud of the work he did on BR:E, but the fact that he continues to just build things off of Nu52 continuity rather than embracing Rebirth has been my biggest problem with his run.

Additional Cass thoughts: I'd kind of love it if Cass started quoting Shakespeare like she used to occasionally quote TV shows and movies in the good continuity. If not overdone, it could be really nice. Also, no confirmation about the state of Cass's codename. Interesting...

Also, also, if the rest of the arc is like this issue, it will have the best team panel-time and use balancing of any arc in this run, bar none.

I don't think it's necessary for Clayface to turn evil, but Tynion's been dropping massive hints (in 950 especially) that his current status quo isn't sustainable.

It's definitely going to culminate in Basil's arc, whenever that ends up being, but hopefully he'll come out alright. He's been the best addition to the BatFam in a LONG time, and I don't want to lose him.

I don't want him to turn evil but this is comics. Not many villains stay good.

At least it's not completely unfounded. At Marvel, Pietro, Wanda, Rogue, Hawkeye, and Black Widow were all originally villains. Not as many examples for DC as when villains become heroes here, they usually end up becoming anti-heroes, but still.

[millernumber1]

Only two real negatives I can think of here: 1) The new Azrael getting punked as soon as it showed up doesn't exactly inspire fear. 2) MOTHER. Just, Mother. Like, I know Tynion is probably still proud of the work he did on BR:E, but the fact that he continues to just build things off of Nu52 continuity rather than embracing Rebirth has been my biggest problem with his run.

It's definitely going to culminate in Basil's arc, whenever that ends up being, but hopefully he'll come out alright. He's been the best addition to the BatFam in a LONG time, and I don't want to lose him.

I mean - Zatanna is super powerful, so I don't think her immobilizing Ascalon is a problem, since I'm positive that it will just build some more of itself and be right back.

I think Mother is great up until she turned into a ninja at the very end. But I like both of the Eternals more than most fans I know, since they got me back into comics after a three year absence.

I think there's a possibility that Basil will at least become a Catwoman type figure - Killer Croc's current continuity has had him as a sort of antihero since at least Batman Eternal, despite the Batwoman issue that had him munching on people again (I think - Caivu might have to correct me here) - which is nearly three years of not being a straight up villain. Clayface forming relationships with Cass and Luke is the most likely way for him to actually remain on the edges of heroism, rather than devolving to his status quo - but I feel like the way Tynion set things up in 950 indicates that we're looking at a reset eventually.

[Alycat]

Imma write Tynion a strongly worded tweet if it happens.

[Assam]

I think there's a possibility that Basil will at least become a Catwoman type figure - Killer Croc's current continuity has had him as a sort of antihero since at least Batman Eternal, despite the Batwoman issue that had him munching on people again (I think - Caivu might have to correct me here) - which is nearly three years of not being a straight up villain. Clayface forming relationships with Cass and Luke is the most likely way for him to actually remain on the edges of heroism, rather than devolving to his status quo - but I feel like the way Tynion set things up in 950 indicates that we're looking at a reset eventually.

A reset would just be so pointless though. Here you have the most unique addition to the BatFam since David Zavimbe, and the most unique current member of the BatFam since Kate, with stories that can only be told with him, excellent relationships which could be established, and stupendous relationships which already have been established. And all that thrown away so he could go back to being a generic Batman rogue while Duke gets to be the chosen one or whatever, even though there are several other Clayfaces which could be used as Batman rogues.

Like I said, the only way I'd be okay with Basil going back to being an enemy would be if he was a tragic villain in a Cass solo, with curing him being her main objective.

[millernumber1]

A reset would just be so pointless though. Here you have the most unique addition to the BatFam since David Zavimbe, and the most unique current member of the BatFam since Kate, with stories that can only be told with him, excellent relationships which could be established, and stupendous relationships which already have been established. And all that thrown away so he could go back to being a generic Batman rogue while Duke gets to be the chosen one or whatever, even though there are several other Clayfaces which could be used as Batman rogues.

Like I said, the only way I'd be okay with Basil going back to being an enemy would be if he was a tragic villain in a Cass solo, with curing him being her main objective.

I mean...it's all about the illusion of change, and who gets control over the characters in the long run.

It's basically what Grant Morrison did with Damian - thankfully, wiser heads prevailed (and the Robin mantle tends to stick in fans' minds). But Clayface has such intertia as a villain that I'm not sure there's anything we can do other than buy the heck out of the book and let JT4 know we love current, heroic Clayface.

[Katana500]

Outsiders in Detective in the Future?

We definitely have plans for the [original] Outsiders. I wanted to actually re-introduce them about a year ago, honestly, but we couldn’t due to other plans for certain characters. James Tynion has plans for those characters in Detective, and there are also plans for them beyond that. We are excited to integrate those characters back into the Bat-mythos and the DCU as a whole.

[Assam]

outsiders in detective in the future?

bleeeeeeeeh! Why?!

[Katana500]

bleeeeeeeeh! Why?!

I wouldn't mind if they appeared in TEC, before they get their own book again or something

[Assam]

I wouldn't mind if they appeared in TEC, before they get their own book again or something

I know they have their fans, but I have never cared for the original Outsiders team. They're all just so bland. Not incredibly so, but there's nothing about them that makes me care about them. I really don't want them taking up panel time in 'Tec, and I'll be rolling my eyes if they get their own book.

[Assam]

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...44929399017472

[millernumber1]

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...44929399017472

Ahaha. He's so funny.

[AzraelOnline]

Really loved seeing the Cassandra/Basil bonding. Can't wait to see what they do with her, and crossing fingers Basil stays good.
Anyone else notice the little easter egg in there. Maybe a possibility of JPV wearing his bat suit again?

[millernumber1]

Really loved seeing the Cassandra/Basil bonding. Can't wait to see what they do with her, and crossing fingers Basil stays good.
Anyone else notice the little easter egg in there. Maybe a possibility of JPV wearing his bat suit again?

No - where was that? I was thinking that Azrael has, before this, always been a potential replacement for Batman, first in Knightfall, then in Battle for the Cowl.

[Frontier]

I don't know how I'm going to feel about this splinter sect of the Order of St. Dumas and their new warrior, but "Ascalon" is a pretty cool name nevertheless.

I miss seeing Bruce Wayne in public and doing stuff. It feels so few and far between these days .

I just love Penguin just driving in on one of those golf carts/smaller cars. That's just so Penguin .

I'm surprised they let Killer Moth into that VIP table. I mean, he said he used his gear as collateral, but...it's Killer Moth.

I loved all that build-up to Zatanna and her entrance at the end. She looked great (classic look FTW) and it was just the perfect re-introduction to her into the DCU, which is long due .

I also like all the teases to Zee and Bruce's relationship, so I'm looking forward to seeing their history together under Zatarra and the likely banter and sexual tension we might see play out in this adventure.

At least it's not completely unfounded. At Marvel, Pietro, Wanda, Rogue, Hawkeye, and Black Widow were all originally villains. Not as many examples for DC as when villains become heroes here, they usually end up becoming anti-heroes, but still.

The difference being that those people became far more recognized by their tenure as heroes then they were as villains, especially considering how short their stints as villains were, which I don't think will ever be the case for Clayface.

I think if Tynion had any intention of introducing one of the evil Clayfaces so Basil doesn't have to return to villainy, we would've seen a hint or indication of it by now.

Really, I think it's more likely Tynion is using this as an opportunity to really reinvigorate the tragedy and sympathy of Clayface as a villain.

This might be Basil's equivalent of that time in Post-Crisis when Dent was "cured" of being Two-Face, and that didn't last.