Was Batman right to make plans against the Justice League?

[SiegePerilous02]

As for the other point, Batman is an adult who is extremely capable. It’s not like anyone gave him permission to do this, but he has the free choice to do, as does any other hero. As Batman himself said, if you can’t see the reason for why these plans were necessary and, indeed, wouldn’t do the same thing yourself, you’re a damn fool.

Batman is wise to make the plans considering how dangerous the JL could be when they go rogue (and they do due to various reasons), but not letting people know he was making plans was a mistake. And adopting the "I did nothing wrong" attitude just makes him look like an absolute *******.

The situation sort of comes up in Alex Ross's Justice, and there he is nothing but apologetic for his plans getting stolen and he blames himself because of course he does not want his friends to be needlessly hurt or endangered because of his actions. It's the difference between a well written Batman and a terrible one.

[TheRay]

No, he's apologetic for the plans being stolen, but that's it. Why would he tell people he has the plans? That's the utmost terrible idea for at least two reasons. First, even though rogues somehow found out about them anyway, spreading the news around would make that many more people aware of them and that much more likely they would be stolen. Second, why would you tell the people who you are planning to save the world from if the need arises about said plans? Then if the plans ever did become necessary those people would be aware of them and would have the opportunity to protect themselves against it.

It definitely doesn't make him look like that at all. If Batman didn't think it was the right thing to do, then he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

[Gaius]

The precaution was right though his "I'm sorry I got caught not that I did it" attitude doesn't help him. I agree with others that him leaving his plans in the Bat-computer was probably the stupidest thing the supposed geniuses of the DC Universe could have done. Knowing the DC universe, he could have just written the plans down in a book and store it in a box in his attic and no one would have thought to look for it.


His Brother Eye program was way more over bounds than his contingency plans and actually got scores of people killed but I guess he was too busy wagging his finger at Diana for killing Max Lord to ever let that one sink in. Diana was nice enough to never bring up his Brother Eye program got her Amazon sisters killed and homeland devastated

[marhawkman]

Batman is wise to make the plans considering how dangerous the JL could be when they go rogue (and they do due to various reasons), but not letting people know he was making plans was a mistake. And adopting the "I did nothing wrong" attitude just makes him look like an absolute *******.

The situation sort of comes up in Alex Ross's Justice, and there he is nothing but apologetic for his plans getting stolen and he blames himself because of course he does not want his friends to be needlessly hurt or endangered because of his actions. It's the difference between a well written Batman and a terrible one.

Yeah the JL gets incapacitated, and in some cases nearly killed. Sure... Batman's plans were non-lethal.... that doesn't stop his enemies from improvising.

Especially since it required him to build a bunch of special hardware. Stealing all that hardware is what made the plans work. If it was used differently? the entire JL could have been killed.

[SiegePerilous02]

No, he's apologetic for the plans being stolen, but that's it. Why would he tell people he has the plans? That's the utmost terrible idea for at least two reasons. First, even though rogues somehow found out about them anyway, spreading the news around would make that many more people aware of them and that much more likely they would be stolen. Second, why would you tell the people who you are planning to save the world from if the need arises about said plans? Then if the plans ever did become necessary those people would be aware of them and would have the opportunity to protect themselves against it.

It definitely doesn't make him look like that at all. If Batman didn't think it was the right thing to do, then he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

He should tell them because they are his friends and his allies that trust and depend on him during their shared fight to keep the world safe from lethal supervillains and alien invaders. The last thing they need is one of their allies coming up with plans that can be abused to kill them without their know how, and surprise surprise, the fact that he isn't infallible resulted in supervillains getting ahold of them and nearly killing the League anyway.

All they would be aware of is that he had plans, but wouldn't know the specifics and wouldn't know how to counter. I mean, if Superman goes evil he should make a bee-line for Bruce and take him out anyway regardless of knowing specific plans, it's only plot armor that would prevent him from doing it in the first place. And I wouldn't put too much stock in 90s/2000s Batman knowing what the right thing to do is. He's kind of characterized as an arrogant piece of ****. The core of the man's mission is empathy and desire to protect his fellow man from being victimized the way he was; it's is extremely OOC for this hero to adopt a "I don't care that I indirectly hurt and nearly killed some of you" attitude towards his friends who have the same goals he does, but that's what DC pushes a lot, missing the entire point of who Bruce Wayne is meant to be.

His Brother Eye program was way more over bounds than his contingency plans and actually got scores of people killed but I guess he was too busy wagging his finger at Diana for killing Max Lord to ever let that one sink in. Diana was nice enough to never bring up his Brother Eye program got her Amazon sisters killed and homeland devastated

I'm legitimately torn between being thankful for Morrison adopting a "let us never speak of that crap again" when writing their Batman run, and Diana and the Amazons not getting a chance to absolutely ream Batman for getting some of their sisters killed.

Ideally, the entire OMAC/IC saga would be dismissed as a bad dream for all properties and not just one over the other.

[Rac7d*]

Yes he should have done it in the Injustice era

[TheRay]

All they would be aware of is that he had plans, but wouldn't know the specifics and wouldn't know how to counter. I mean, if Superman goes evil he should make a bee-line for Bruce and take him out anyway regardless of knowing specific plans, it's only plot armor that would prevent him from doing it in the first place. And I wouldn't put too much stock in 90s/2000s Batman knowing what the right thing to do is. He's kind of characterized as an arrogant piece of ****. The core of the man's mission is empathy and desire to protect his fellow man from being victimized the way he was; it's is extremely OOC for this hero to adopt a "I don't care that I indirectly hurt and nearly killed some of you" attitude towards his friends who have the same goals he does, but that's what DC pushes a lot, missing the entire point of who Bruce Wayne is meant to be.

The problem with most of the stuff you're saying here is that it would go directly against Batman's character. They trust and depend upon him? Okay, so what? Batman doesn't act based on sentimentality. And, no, rationality and logic are far more accurate to Batman's character than hurt feelings. That's always been true.

Do you honestly believe they would find out he has contingency plans and not push it any further? Not try to patch up the supposed chinks in their armor? That makes no sense, I mean as far as Superman and Martian Manhunter go, everyone knows the contingency for them so they're not even in this discussion.

[Gaius]

I'm legitimately torn between being thankful for Morrison adopting a "let us never speak of that crap again" when writing their Batman run, and Diana and the Amazons not getting a chance to absolutely ream Batman for getting some of their sisters killed.

Ideally, the entire OMAC/IC saga would be dismissed as a bad dream for all properties and not just one over the other.

No, you're right. Morrison made the right move of largely not letting that impact their Batman run (at least from what I've read of it so far). Stuff like Lord and IC could have been salvaged had they not took the rug out from Rucka and then pretty much derailed the book so much Simone spent most of her run undoing all that and Amazons Attack.

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem with most of the stuff you're saying here is that it would go directly against Batman's character. They trust and depend upon him? Okay, so what? Batman doesn't act based on sentimentality. And, no, rationality and logic are far more accurate to Batman's character than hurt feelings. That's always been true.

Do you honestly believe they would find out he has contingency plans and not push it any further? Not try to patch up the supposed chinks in their armor? That makes no sense, I mean as far as Superman and Martian Manhunter go, everyone knows the contingency for them so they're not even in this discussion.

Says who? It ultimately depends on what version of Batman we're talking about. But his entire life's mission is based on sentimentality and empathy. To say otherwise and saying he prioritized rationality (and it's not rational, it's paranoia) over inflicting potential death on other heroes is counter to his entire character.

If he explained his reasoning for why he has them? No they wouldn't push further. They are professional superheroes who are very powerful and encounter mind control BS all the time. They aren't stupid and would recognize the need for such plans. Him keeping them only to himself actually makes them even more vulnerable, because of the scenario that ended up happening or him getting taken out/brainwashed himself. Wonder Woman, who was raised and taught by warriors and strategists, would tell him this. So would GL who is part of an entire organized Corps. Him not thinking they'd would understand his reasoning makes him arrogant and paranoid/an idiot.

[marhawkman]

Says who? It ultimately depends on what version of Batman we're talking about. But his entire life's mission is based on sentimentality and empathy. To say otherwise and saying he prioritized rationality (and it's not rational, it's paranoia) over inflicting potential death on other heroes is counter to his entire character.

If he explained his reasoning for why he has them? No they wouldn't push further. They are professional superheroes who are very powerful and encounter mind control BS all the time. They aren't stupid and would recognize the need for such plans. Him keeping them only to himself actually makes them even more vulnerable, because of the scenario that ended up happening or him getting taken out/brainwashed himself. Wonder Woman, who was raised and taught by warriors and strategists, would tell him this. So would GL who is part of an entire organized Corps. Him not thinking they'd would understand his reasoning makes him arrogant and paranoid/an idiot.

Honestly the weird part was the extreme specificity of some of them. The red k variant he used? If he used it on Zod? Batman probably wouldn't live to regret it. Which.... would also apply if Superman was being manipulated by a telepath... like Max Lord... which was part of why WW killed Max. Max had actually used his powers to have Superman nearly beat Batman to death. But Batman came up with a stupid plan that only worked BECAUSE Superman WASN'T acting as a villain. That Red K variant wouldn't have had any effect on the outcome of the Max Lord incident.

[Agent Z]

Hey I gave you the opportunity to make clear whether we were talking about the movie or the comic, you elected not to do so.

You did no such thing. You know good and well this thread is about the comics not the movies so please stop this nonsense.

[TheRay]

You did no such thing. You know good and well this thread is about the comics not the movies so please stop this nonsense.

No, I absolutely did. Anybody reading the thread saw it. Not sure why you've chosen to be completely obnoxious all of a sudden, but you're just making yourself look like a complete fool with each new post.

Also, I'm the one who bumped this thread to discuss the movie, so pay attention and maybe you'll look a bit less childish in the future.

Says who? It ultimately depends on what version of Batman we're talking about. But his entire life's mission is based on sentimentality and empathy.
If he explained his reasoning for why he has them? No they wouldn't push further.

Sentimentality and empathy towards himself.
Now you're just being completely naïve. They absolutely would push further. Nobody's going to let something that could potentially seriously hurt them or prevent them from helping others just sit idly by. Even Superman wanted answers as to what Batman was going to do to prevent himself from going evil.

[SiegePerilous02]

Sentimentality and empathy towards himself.

I think we have wildly different views of what makes Batman a hero, who he is and why he does his mission.

if he's that self centered and does not have empathy for his fellow man, he's not a hero and he's not right. That would make him a sociopathic villain, which DC often accidentally mischaracterizes him as, but that doesn't mean it's good. You don't seriously think he should be trusted as being in the right, do you?

Now you're just being completely naïve. They absolutely would push further. Nobody's going to let something that could potentially seriously hurt them or prevent them from helping others just sit idly by. Even Superman wanted answers as to what Batman was going to do to prevent himself from going evil.

They'd push further if he continued to be closed off about it, If he actually acted like a responsible adult and explains his reasoning, the other reasonable adults in the room would be supportive and only push to a point and find a solution where they could all have contingencies for each other. Entrusting only himself for this when he is far from beyond corruption is incredibly irresponsible and arrogant.

A main reason Superman pushes for more answers is because Batman acts like a paranoid douche about everything, and in one instance it got a tone of innocent people including Amazons killed (OMAC). If he acts like a villain he's going to be treated like a villain. If he was actually as smart as he was supposed to be, he and the League could work out an entire system with this. He has no business working with them if they can't trust him.

[phonogram12]

Honestly? I'd say yeah. I mean, I'd trust Bats over any world government to make contingency plans against the JLA. That said, there was no way that he wasn't going to look like the bad guy for this. But that kind of works out since he generally doesn't care about what other people think about him.

[phonogram12]

What Bruce should have done was have it so every police officer was equipped with a Kryptonite gun or vibra-bullet.

If DC's police are anything even remotely like cops irl, absolutely not.