How special should Diana be among the Amazons?

[Amazon Swordsman]

Diana should naturally be top tier, among the best. The rest of the amazons should fall in from Spider-Man to Shazam power levels.

[Darkseid Is]

She should be the best, how Batman is to humans and how Superman is to kryptonians. Don't have to be the most powerful but the most intelligent, clever, heroic, yada yada yada. No other Amazon should be able to walk in her shoes and survive like she has, like no other human could wear the cape and cowl.

I don't know, that's how I see it. I'm not the biggest Wonder Woman expert (I am recently reading more and more of her books though) but I have a good knowledge Greek mythology and of the Amazons. They're spawns of Ares. They're pretty much born to fight wars. Wonder woman should transcend that. In greek mythology the great heroes are always beautiful looking people who have the ability to kill a crap ton. Their killing of people in war is celebrated. Of course Wonder Woman is a great warrior but she can show compassion and be a hero in the modern sense instead of a hero of the mythic sense. She's like the bridge between the original superheroes (mythological gods and heroes) and today's Super Heroes. I'm realizing this stuff and learning lately and it's fascinating.

[Agent Z]

She should be the best, how Batman is to humans and how Superman is to kryptonians. Don't have to be the most powerful but the most intelligent, clever, heroic, yada yada yada. No other Amazon should be able to walk in her shoes and survive like she has, like no other human could wear the cape and cowl.

I don't know, that's how I see it. I'm not the biggest Wonder Woman expert (I am recently reading more and more of her books though) but I have a good knowledge Greek mythology and of the Amazons. They're spawns of Ares. They're pretty much born to fight wars. Wonder woman should transcend that. In greek mythology the great heroes are always beautiful looking people who have the ability to kill a crap ton. Their killing of people in war is celebrated. Of course Wonder Woman is a great warrior but she can show compassion and be a hero in the modern sense instead of a hero of the mythic sense. She's like the bridge between the original superheroes (mythological gods and heroes) and today's Super Heroes. I'm realizing this stuff and learning lately and it's fascinating.

The only Amazon who was related to Ares by blood was Hippolyta and even that is only in some version of the myths

[Outside_85]

I am inclined to think the best version of Diana is as a 'First Among Equals'.

Because it makes sense to me that Diana has grown up surrounded by people like her, without her floating above everyone's heads. WML got around Perez's cradle-blessings by adding an enchantment that nullified Diana's powers as long as she was on Paradise Island. Azzarello got around it the same way Perez did initially and simply not get into whenever or not the Amazons were nearly as powerful as Diana or not.
But that said, with Diana being in the same physical pot as the other Amazons, I am also inclined to think she should be the best among them... like explained in the movie that she is the one thats been trained the hardest. In the New 52 where she had an extra teacher who had seen her natural talents. The animated movie and Perez's origins where she is naturally gifted above the other Amazons. And so on.

The important thing however is to show that Diana's powers have not set her apart from her sisters, because thats what I see as one of the key elements in her interactions with normal humans later on. She is used to seeing and meeting people at their eye height, not appear as the goddess she technically is.

[Marik Swift]

Since when are typical Atlanteans superhuman rather than enhanced?

The Amazons in WW's mythology were originally conceived as superhuman (and not mildly so). They fought celestial beings and could challenge Diana. They have been being continually depowered to the point that now they are normals. I LOL at 'as smart as Batman' given that their science gave them mastery of time and space in the original backstory. I just wonder why the trend is always to lessen WW or her Sisters. I noticed that with NRS and INJUSTICE too. The Injustice 2 WW is absolutely bizarre in design.

Atlanteans have consistently average a few tons quite a while now I think. Either way, my problem with the Amazons being that superhuman is that their skill become a non factor, just like WW herself. I'd rather see an with peak human condition take down a kryptonian with her skill than in a boring punch off.

You wanting the Amazons to return that level of premiere intelligence and power isnt going to happen now that there are other races that need specialties of their own, and nobody at DC cares all that much to give WW mythos such a significant role, hence why she has been "slightly weaker" than Superman for years.

Good thing I didn't say that.

Binary thinking, people....I specifically said not Kryptonian level. There's an awful lot of room below Superman level for the Amazons to live in....

Actually you specifically said kryptonian level.

Anyway, Wonder Woman being weaker than Superman (but constantly stated to be his equal/slightly weaker, despite never being consistent shown to be that way) is one of her critical flaws. And I'd rather not see the Amazons get the same treatment. Either make them stronger, equal (and consistently shown as such) or weaker. Middling never works as all it does is constantly set that character/race up to live in the shadow of it's compares (as WW has to Supes).

[gwangung]

Actually you specifically said kryptonian level.

For Diana, after being gifted. Which is not that controversial.

I think you need to read comments a bit more carefully.

[Stanlos]

Atlanteans have consistently average a few tons quite a while now I think. Either way, my problem with the Amazons being that superhuman is that their skill become a non factor, just like WW herself. I'd rather see an with peak human condition take down a kryptonian with her skill than in a boring punch off.

I used to encounter this binary logic on battle boards a lot, but ONLY when they were discussing Diana (and her sisters). Ares? He could be both skilled and uber; and his skills were touted. Thor? He could be both skilled and uber; and his skills were touted. Hercules? He could be both skilled and uber; and his touted. Orion? The same.

But for some reason when it comes to WW it has to be an either/or situation.

I don't understand that given that Marston included both expressly. In fact, in some of his musings Amazon training was the source of their superpowers.

I am curious: why do you feel that her skill is diminished if she and her sisters are superhuman. Do you find similar issue with say Karate who more or less uses that same dynamic?

You wanting the Amazons to return that level of premiere intelligence and power isnt going to happen now that there are other races that need specialties of their own, and nobody at DC cares all that much to give WW mythos such a significant role, hence why she has been "slightly weaker" than Superman for years.

WW's strength is ranked A1, same as Superman and in direct discussions about their raw power and superstrength 'evenly matched' is typically used. Given her origins, that is a minimum.

Anyway, Wonder Woman being weaker than Superman (but constantly stated to be his equal/slightly weaker, despite never being consistent shown to be that way) is one of her critical flaws. And I'd rather not see the Amazons get the same treatment. Either make them stronger, equal (and consistently shown as such) or weaker. Middling never works as all it does is constantly set that character/race up to live in the shadow of it's compares (as WW has to Supes).

Consistency has certainly been a problem with the character but that has largely been corrected and they have greatly. We are now at a point culturally where her premise can be mined. I think they should do that and celebrate her vigorously.

[NYCER]

I like that Diana is "not an Amazon like the rest" as Connie Nielsen's Hipppolyta declared and that all the Amazons knew this. It was a good way to get rid of the contest element of the origin story because everyone knew that Diana was the "chosen one" and uniquely, supremely gifted as a, for lack of a better term, super/uber Amazon.

[Tec15]

I wonder how many people saying she should have the same powers as the rest of the Amazons also think she is (Or should be) more powerful than Superman?

[Lex Luthor]

I wonder how many people saying she should have the same powers as the rest of the Amazons also think she is (Or should be) more powerful than Superman?

I think she should be as powerful as superman and that the amazons should all be in that powerhouse as well. Is there a contradiction or something you're trying to point out?

[Marik Swift]

For Diana, after being gifted. Which is not that controversial.

I think you need to read comments a bit more carefully.

Sorry, my mistake.

I used to encounter this binary logic on battle boards a lot, but ONLY when they were discussing Diana (and her sisters). Ares? He could be both skilled and uber; and his skills were touted. Thor? He could be both skilled and uber; and his skills were touted. Hercules? He could be both skilled and uber; and his touted. Orion? The same.

But for some reason when it comes to WW it has to be an either/or situation.

I don't understand that given that Marston included both expressly. In fact, in some of his musings Amazon training was the source of their superpowers.

I am curious: why do you feel that her skill is diminished if she and her sisters are superhuman. Do you find similar issue with say Karate who more or less uses that same dynamic?

None of those character are held to the same standard of combat skill as Diana. Have you ever heard any of the characters being stated to be "the/one of the most skilled fighters"? No. They have been stated to be good fighters, not skilled fighters. Completely different.

And yes, I very much feel the same about characters like Karate Kid when it comes to this. Hell, I don't even like Superman having combat training, cause it takes away what was once a fun part of his character and paralleled him to Lex—that without his powers he isn't much.

WW's strength is ranked A1, same as Superman and in direct discussions about their raw power and superstrength 'evenly matched' is typically used. Given her origins, that is a minimum.

Stated, not shown.

Everytime Wonder Woman is stated to be as strong as Superman it's just mouth service. How many times have we seen her do feats comparable to Superman? How many times have we seen him knock her out/severely damage her/etc with a single blow? That can be accounted to the writers of course, but the fact that stuff like that even gets pass editorial says it all about how little DC cares for her.

Consistency has certainly been a problem with the character but that has largely been corrected and they have greatly. We are now at a point culturally where her premise can be mined. I think they should do that and celebrate her vigorously.

It really hasn't. The new52 Superman/Wonder Woman book was a glorified Superman book that didn't make Diana look good except for her taking down Zod/Fiora, but then that was immediately a non factor later when she needed Superman to protect her from a nuke.

Will have to wait and see what they do for Rebirth.

[Agent Z]

None of those character are held to the same standard of combat skill as Diana. Have you ever heard any of the characters being stated to be "the/one of the most skilled fighters"? No. They have been stated to be good fighters, not skilled fighters. Completely different.

How is it different?

And yes, I very much feel the same about characters like Karate Kid when it comes to this. Hell, I don't even like Superman having combat training, cause it takes away what was once a fun part of his character and paralleled him to Lex—that without his powers he isn't much.

You can give him combat training and still not have be “much” without his powers. He isn’t as smart as Lex and doesn’t have his wealth and resources.

Stated, not shown.

Everytime Wonder Woman is stated to be as strong as Superman it's just mouth service. How many times have we seen her do feats comparable to Superman?

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...r_woman_pre52/
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/wonde...-feats-600869/

How many times have we seen him knock her out/severely damage her/etc with a single blow? That can be accounted to the writers of course, but the fact that stuff like that even gets pass editorial says it all about how little DC cares for her.

How many times have we seen Superman struggle or be beaten by everyone from Darkseid to Deathstroke? How many times has a Flash been tagged by someone slower despite being called “The Fastest Man Alive”? Those instances don’t discredit their power levels why should Diana getting beat by Superman in some instances discredit her’s?

It really hasn't. The new52 Superman/Wonder Woman book was a glorified Superman book that didn't make Diana look good except for her taking down Zod/Fiora, but then that was immediately a non factor later when she needed Superman to protect her from a nuke.

Will have to wait and see what they do for Rebirth.

Superman/Wonder Woman is not the only book she appeared in. We’ve seen her beat Super girl and give Superman a kick he said he’d be feeling tomorrow and take out one of Darkseid’s eyes. And there’s her appearances in BvS and Justice League Action. So largely, they are correcting her issues with power consistency.

[Tec15]

I think she should be as powerful as superman and that the amazons should all be in that powerhouse as well. Is there a contradiction or something you're trying to point out?

I see. So you think that in effect, DC should make random Amazon #39 as powerful as their premier hero, the top dog, the one held up as the most powerful one? Good luck with that.

[Agent Z]

I see. So you think that in effect, DC should make random Amazon #39 as powerful as their premier hero, the top dog, the one held up as the most powerful one? Good luck with that.

Superman hasn't been top dog in DC in decades no matter how much writers and fans want to believe

[Marik Swift]

How is it different?

Fighting Skill ≠ Fighting Ability

You can give him combat training and still not have be “much” without his powers. He isn’t as smart as Lex and doesn’t have his wealth and resources.

So does most people. Think you missed the point I was getting at, but this is off topic, so forget it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...r_woman_pre52/
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/wonde...-feats-600869/

How many times have we seen Superman struggle or be beaten by everyone from Darkseid to Deathstroke? How many times has a Flash been tagged by someone slower despite being called “The Fastest Man Alive”? Those instances don’t discredit their power levels why should Diana getting beat by Superman in some instances discredit her’s?

I'm familiar with both threads. Most of her tests just feel like cheap fanservice to keep Wonder fans silent though cause not long after she goes back to jobbing. Nevertheless, I'll concede on this since I know as a fan I can be bias in how I want her to be treated. Comics isn't known for its consistency to begin with.

Superman/Wonder Woman is not the only book she appeared in. We’ve seen her beat Super girl and give Superman a kick he said he’d be feeling tomorrow and take out one of Darkseid’s eyes. And there’s her appearances in BvS and Justice League Action. So largely, they are correcting her issues with power consistency.

While I agree, let me just say her beating Supergirl really needs to stop being a credible feat. Her beating an untrained teenage girl really is practically the opposite of a feat, it's like boasting you killed an ant.