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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    You guys really think a Black Superman film will flop?
    No. I think it will only flop if the script is weak.

  2. #167
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    The moment I saw this thread again, I knew it was to do with Ta-Nehisi Coates

    Honestly, if they are going with a "black Superman", I sincerely hope its Calvin Ellis AKA President Superman!

    Like it or not, the iconic image of Superman is a white male in the blue and red suit. And that's just the image we're talking about. Making the character of Kal-El/Clark Kent black is a tricky situation to say the least...one that will explode into controversy the likes of which the comic-book/superhero genre will never have seen before. Canon purists will be the least of DC's problems once the right-wing, or even moderate centre-right types, will be through with them! And of course, the backlash will itself have its own backlash and before long there will be another front opened in the United States' ongoing "culture war"...

    But with Calvin Ellis, they have a brilliant opportunity to take a character who's at the sweet spot of being somewhat established, but not established enough that they can't take some liberties while reinventing him for the big screen. He's basically Obama as Superman, so that's an interesting angle to play with. Hell, if we're talking Black Panther comparisions, Calvin Ellis' world is essentially Wakanda in America - an alternate reality where the blacks are the ones in positions of power and prominence in the United States (and the world in general), led by a Kryptonian survivor who's also black. How did this happen? Did the world's most powerful man being black change the lives and destinies of entire races? Or was Calvin lucky to land on a version of earth where he was primed for success? Interesting questions which the few comic stories he's been in haven't really explored, but which could be explored on the big screen.

    Besides, we get to avoid seeing a retelling of the classic Superman origin story again...at any rate, while Calvin's story will be similar, it'll also be pretty different in a lot of respects.

    And the best part? At some point, you get to have the two Supermen team up!

  3. #168
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    You guys really think a Black Superman film will flop?
    Two DC movies have flop Green Lantern and Justice League. Both of them had same component for the flop. They both costed way too much money to make Green Lantern cost 200 million made about 219 million, Justice League cost about 300 million and made about 657 million dollars. Now they are some movies that might have underperformed but they aren't flops.

    So no I don't think Black Superman movie will flop history us tells it will do well enough , And it is too early to tell if it is going to underperform, The only way a Superman movie underperforms if it is boring(Superman returns) or it is out of character(Man of Steel). But since a black superman is already out of character it won't have that weight on it. They simply have to make a good three act action movie and it will make a ton of money.

  4. #169
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    I don't understand why superman need to be black or any other race?? I'm fine with Superman being white. Being black or any other race doesn't make him more relatable!! I'm black and making superman black wouldn't have me running to the movies !! For some reason now in order to be relatable a character has to be non-white, if your not white you can't relate to that character, that's not true!! Why can't writers create new characters of color with their own stories and stop trying to change their races??
    Last edited by lotchj; 02-28-2021 at 05:53 AM.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    I don't understand why superman need to be black or any other race?? I'm fine with Superman being white. Being black or any other race doesn't make him more relatable!! I'm black and making superman black wouldn't have me running to the movies !! For some reason now in order to be relatable a character has to be non-white, if your not white you can't relate to that character, that's not true!! Why can't writers create new characters of color with their own stories and stop trying to change their races??
    Well, sadly, that's the way political discource is moving in the United States, especially when it comes to Hollywood and the TV industry.

    The weird part is, there ARE actually characters of color whom DC could realistically make a successful film with. John Stewart as Green Lantern to start with. They've introduced Renee Montoya in Birds of Prey...they could potentially give her a spin-off as the Question (though that's a lot less likely). Black Lightning's already had a TV show...he could get a movie. Static Shock could be a great brand to explore for kids.

    Hell, if we're talking Superman...then you've got Calvin Ellis! Or Val Zod! You have the advantage of the Superman brand while getting a relatively clean slate and representation!

  6. #171
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I do think it smells like Hollywood big-wigs trying to pull a fast one, but conceptually I think it can work. Yes, Supergirl is technically not Latina and a Black Superman would never technically be Black, but the same is true of current Superman. He is technically not Caucasian and wasn't born in any culture we associate with Caucasians because of his Kryptonian roots.
    One thing they barely talked about but... is a thing that's seemingly important when they do mention it... Krypton had multiple groups that didn't look or act the same. this included massive scale wars, and such like things. It'd be interesting to have Kryptonian survivors that... aren't from Kryptonopolis. Yeah Zod and his flunkies? same political region as Superman came from. Survivors from another region on Krypton would make for a very different story.
    As for lived experience, any Superman who grew up on Earth would be treated as whatever race he looks like. A black Clark Kent who grew up in Kansas would've still been at risk of racial profiling and other examples of racism for his entire life.

    Martian Manhunter is a better example of what you're referring to because he can shapeshift and his character is all about not understanding humans, but a black Clark Kent with the same Superman origin? Arguably he would be even more relatable than someone like King T'Challa is, since Superman is an everyman.
    This is a good explanation of why you can't just change Clark Kent. It really needs to be a different character.

  7. #172
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I can't help but think how I never heard any fuss over Dean Cain, who is part Japanese, playing Clark.
    Did people have issues on his race that I'm unaware of?

  8. #173
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Calvin Ellis is a Kal El, it doesn’t matter to me if it’s the “Real Superman.” And i think it’s great if it is “The Real Superman.” I wouldn’t care if it is Clark Kent but I want an alternate universe story in the next movie. I do think there will be something unique about a Black Superman. I’m onboard, I hope JJ Abrams is just producing. The new Watchman was amazing, Lovecraft Country was good, Black Panther was/is iconic, Miles Morales and Into the Spiderverse is a contender for best animated and best superhero movie...Superman should be part of that type of storytelling. Grant Morrison created the most recent version?!? It’s even got comic roots! I’m old, I’m not black but I’m brown, I’m use to Superman not looking like me and I still think “I get the character.” This could be great plus Cavill Superman lives. The Snyder verse has been a Superman epic. Part 3 is 4 hours long and has Darkseid! I still need to watch the CW show! Plenty of good old Clark still out there and generating fan base!
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 02-28-2021 at 08:28 AM.

  9. #174
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I can't help but think how I never heard any fuss over Dean Cain, who is part Japanese, playing Clark.
    Did people have issues on his race that I'm unaware of?
    I never heard anyone complain about Cain (at least as far as race goes), but he was also white passing. I didn't actually know he was part Japanese until years after the show had ended.

    And nobody bitched about the animated series either, even though Clark was usually shaded much darker than other white characters; he was well tanned to the point he could've been any number of races, but was still white passing.

    And I don't think most of us expect the movie to fail because of black Superman specifically, but because WB is bad at making DC films. When they can't figure out how to make "regular flavor" Superman work, the odds of them getting black Superman right, with all the socio-political weight it'll carry, feel impossibly low. A lot of us feel that this is the worst kind of pandering, but that's besides the point that WB simply can't get Superman right. Abrams and Coates could announce today that they're gonna be doing regular ol' white boy Clark Kent and I'd still expect the film to be a disaster.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #175
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    WW 84 was indeed a train wreck. I haven’t read it but Coates last book was supernatural and supposedly really good!

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Well, sadly, that's the way political discource is moving in the United States, especially when it comes to Hollywood and the TV industry.

    The weird part is, there ARE actually characters of color whom DC could realistically make a successful film with. John Stewart as Green Lantern to start with. They've introduced Renee Montoya in Birds of Prey...they could potentially give her a spin-off as the Question (though that's a lot less likely). Black Lightning's already had a TV show...he could get a movie. Static Shock could be a great brand to explore for kids.

    Hell, if we're talking Superman...then you've got Calvin Ellis! Or Val Zod! You have the advantage of the Superman brand while getting a relatively clean slate and representation!
    What I want is to see more Diggle from Arrow; with the ring, no matter if they call him Diggle or John Stewart. But the point about the others is spot on. I already like characters like Stewart or Jefferson and others, why piss people off by changing their favorite characters or killing them off to do that when you already have characters you could use?

  12. #177
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I never heard anyone complain about Cain (at least as far as race goes), but he was also white passing. I didn't actually know he was part Japanese until years after the show had ended.

    And nobody bitched about the animated series either, even though Clark was usually shaded much darker than other white characters; he was well tanned to the point he could've been any number of races, but was still white passing.

    And I don't think most of us expect the movie to fail because of black Superman specifically, but because WB is bad at making DC films. When they can't figure out how to make "regular flavor" Superman work, the odds of them getting black Superman right, with all the socio-political weight it'll carry, feel impossibly low. A lot of us feel that this is the worst kind of pandering, but that's besides the point that WB simply can't get Superman right. Abrams and Coates could announce today that they're gonna be doing regular ol' white boy Clark Kent and I'd still expect the film to be a disaster.
    I did think that Cain being white passing probably was why there wasn't as much fuss.
    I thought it was interesting that he did look more "exotic". I was aware that he wasn't white, but I did figure most people took it for granted he was.
    It's a good point that animated 90s Superman was vaguely darker - so was Lex.
    I want the movie to be good. I support a more radical different approach - it helps that we have a more traditional Superman on tv, so there are different interpretations that can be told. We don't know who this Superman will be - I think a race changed Clark is the worst choice, but I can't help but think that I hope the new movies are better with the supporting cast than the DCEU has been. I still haven't forgiven them for introducing and killing off Jimmy so quickly I wasn't entirely sure he was Jimmy. It just showed a disregard to the source material that Jimmy didn't matter more than that. Clark out of the costume and the Daily Planet, etc weren't something they were concerned with, and then there's the Ayn Rand philosophy shoehorned in, ruining Jonathon Kent by making him someone Clark had to get past to be a hero instead of someone to inspire and encourage him. I can't think of any character less in line with Randian philosophy than Superman who is devoted to helping people.
    Whoever this Superman is, I hope they can capture the heart of his story better.

  13. #178
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    What I want is to see more Diggle from Arrow; with the ring, no matter if they call him Diggle or John Stewart. But the point about the others is spot on. I already like characters like Stewart or Jefferson and others, why piss people off by changing their favorite characters or killing them off to do that when you already have characters you could use?
    I've always been confused by the push for Diggle to replace John Stewart. Shouldn't there be room for John to be GL and Diggle to be his own character?

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I've always been confused by the push for Diggle to replace John Stewart. Shouldn't there be room for John to be GL and Diggle to be his own character?
    The Arrowverse has effectively made Diggle being John Stewart canonical in the last few years (inspired largely by the fan theories and memes about him being John Stewart). The 2018 'Elseworlds' crossover event established that Diggle's doppelganger on another earth is Green Lantern, and later that season on Arrow his backstory was fleshed out to reveal that his stepfather was named Stewart (giving a rationale for some version of him to have that name). Finally, Arrow's season finale pretty much showed him getting the ring...and its almost certain we'll see him as GL at some point given that the character is confirmed to be returning on a bunch of shows.

    Ironically, in the comics, Diggle and John Stewart are separate characters, because Diggle was imported to the comics long before they made him John Stewart on the show

  15. #180
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The Arrowverse has effectively made Diggle being John Stewart canonical in the last few years (inspired largely by the fan theories and memes about him being John Stewart). The 2018 'Elseworlds' crossover event established that Diggle's doppelganger on another earth is Green Lantern, and later that season on Arrow his backstory was fleshed out to reveal that his stepfather was named Stewart (giving a rationale for some version of him to have that name). Finally, Arrow's season finale pretty much showed him getting the ring...and its almost certain we'll see him as GL at some point given that the character is confirmed to be returning on a bunch of shows.

    Ironically, in the comics, Diggle and John Stewart are separate characters, because Diggle was imported to the comics long before they made him John Stewart on the show
    Thanks for filling me in.
    After I gave up cable to save money I have fallen behind on the Arrowverse shows - I need to get the blu rays and catch up. I wasn't aware of the shows essentially revealing that he is an AU John Stewart. Well, that does make all the support for him being GL make more sense.

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