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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Thanks for filling me in.
    After I gave up cable to save money I have fallen behind on the Arrowverse shows - I need to get the blu rays and catch up. I wasn't aware of the shows essentially revealing that he is an AU John Stewart. Well, that does make all the support for him being GL make more sense.
    Its the other way round actually - he was made into an AU John Stewart because of the fan support for him becoming that!

    Granted, it initially started as a few easter eggs and winks and nods...before the showrunners decided to get serious about it.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    One thing they barely talked about but... is a thing that's seemingly important when they do mention it... Krypton had multiple groups that didn't look or act the same. this included massive scale wars, and such like things. It'd be interesting to have Kryptonian survivors that... aren't from Kryptonopolis. Yeah Zod and his flunkies? same political region as Superman came from. Survivors from another region on Krypton would make for a very different story.
    Agreed.

    This is a good explanation of why you can't just change Clark Kent. It really needs to be a different character.
    I'm curious, can you elaborate? Is it because of the part where I said he would be treated growing up as whatever race he looks like?

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    How many heroes, pulp, superhero, or otherwise feature a white hero learning a skill, finding an artifact, or engaging in practice traditionally part of another culture. If I can take Bruce Wayne or Danny Rand being a master of martial arts, I can handle a Black Superman.

  4. #184
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I'm curious, can you elaborate? Is it because of the part where I said he would be treated growing up as whatever race he looks like?
    Is it really the same character with a drastically different origin story?
    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I can't help but think how I never heard any fuss over Dean Cain, who is part Japanese, playing Clark.
    Did people have issues on his race that I'm unaware of?
    Simply put, it wasn't relevant so people didn't talk about it. Dean Cain's ancestry wasn't the reason he got the part.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Is it really the same character with a drastically different origin story?Simply put, it wasn't relevant so people didn't talk about it. Dean Cain's ancestry wasn't the reason he got the part.
    Plus, Dean Cain could pass for white, and visually looked like the traditional image of Superman.

    Ditto with Jason Momoa for Aquaman (he looks more like the 90's bearded version of Aquaman, than the 90's Aquaman looks like the orange-shirted Silver Age Aquaman!)

    Also, visuals and faithfulness to the source material aside, they weren't trying to make a political point.

    Notice how there's hardly any backlash to Zoe Kravitz playing Selina Kyle in Reeves' Batman (none to my knowledge, in fact). Or, for that matter, Jeffrey Wright playing Gordon. Kravitz visually looks like she can pass for the comic-book Selina. Wright doesn't look at all like comic-book Gordon, but even so, its a case of relatively non-controversial color-blind casting and not a front in the culture wars.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Is it really the same character with a drastically different origin story?
    Why would he have a drastically different origin, though?

  7. #187
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    If you give Clark the same origin and just change the skin colour, he's still raised in Smallville, Kansas, right? Is he raised by white folks? Is there prejudice in Smallville? What's the theme--is it about white supremacy in small town America? Or is it painting a bucolic portrait of America where racism doesn't exist? How does Clark relate to the African-Americans living in Suicide Slum, if he had a different experience in Smallville?
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  8. #188
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    If you give Clark the same origin and just change the skin colour, he's still raised in Smallville, Kansas, right? Is he raised by white folks? Is there prejudice in Smallville? What's the theme--is it about white supremacy in small town America? Or is it painting a bucolic portrait of America where racism doesn't exist? How does Clark relate to the African-Americans living in Suicide Slum, if he had a different experience in Smallville?
    Prejudice will always be there.It's just clark won't be a able to hide from it.Essentially,he will be superman24/7.There will be no room for hiding.So clark kent with glasses will be a gonner.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    If you give Clark the same origin and just change the skin colour, he's still raised in Smallville, Kansas, right? Is he raised by white folks? Is there prejudice in Smallville? What's the theme--is it about white supremacy in small town America? Or is it painting a bucolic portrait of America where racism doesn't exist? How does Clark relate to the African-Americans living in Suicide Slum, if he had a different experience in Smallville?
    Then there's what happens when he makes his debut as Superman. Is America ready to come to terms with the fact that the most powerful man on earth is a black man? How will his actions be perceived by authorities, from the President to the mayor and most importantly, down to the cops? When its publicaly revealed that he's an alien, will the prejudice against his skin color bolster any prejudices against his extraterrestrial nature? And if Lex Luthor is white - how does that dynamic play out? Is Luthor motivated by his fear of Superman's power, or by potential racial prejudice?

    There are fascinating aspects to unpack here and its definitely a story worth telling. But its not the classic Superman story, or even a variation of it. And as such, its better explored with a different version of Superman.

  10. #190
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think so too, and I think we kind of already know the answer. "How would people react to a Black Superman?" I think kind of like they are reacting now. I said this earlier, I live with a Scottish Ninja being one of my favorite heroes. I think I also love a Canadian Samurai. The Lone Ranger, Zorro, I believe they have origins in people of color. Zorro in particular was based on a native resistance fighter rather than a Spanish landowner. Watchman the HBO series pointed out how Bass Reeves was instrumental to the Lone Ranger and maybe superheroes in general. "What if Superman had always been Black?!?"

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I did think that Cain being white passing probably was why there wasn't as much fuss.
    I thought it was interesting that he did look more "exotic". I was aware that he wasn't white, but I did figure most people took it for granted he was.
    It's a good point that animated 90s Superman was vaguely darker - so was Lex.
    I want the movie to be good. I support a more radical different approach - it helps that we have a more traditional Superman on tv, so there are different interpretations that can be told. We don't know who this Superman will be - I think a race changed Clark is the worst choice, but I can't help but think that I hope the new movies are better with the supporting cast than the DCEU has been. I still haven't forgiven them for introducing and killing off Jimmy so quickly I wasn't entirely sure he was Jimmy. It just showed a disregard to the source material that Jimmy didn't matter more than that. Clark out of the costume and the Daily Planet, etc weren't something they were concerned with, and then there's the Ayn Rand philosophy shoehorned in, ruining Jonathon Kent by making him someone Clark had to get past to be a hero instead of someone to inspire and encourage him. I can't think of any character less in line with Randian philosophy than Superman who is devoted to helping people.
    Whoever this Superman is, I hope they can capture the heart of his story better.

    stuff like with Dean Cain is an example of how black and white races are social constructs without no scientific basis
    a lot of it is based on prejudices and perceptions
    I was aware that Cain wasn't full European.
    I had been around people that were partly east Asian.
    My stepfather had three half Japanese daughters.
    When I was a kid, I had a crush on a girl who was of French, Japanese, Hawaiian, Irish, and Italian ancestry. She had a Japanese last name.

    I am a Multiracial American that is highly multiethnic
    my father was a Louisiana-born African American with some English, Acadian (French in Nova Scotia), and American Indian ancestry
    my mother is a Californian of Cape Verdean, Ashkenazi Jewish (from Romania and Latvia) Madeiran, Puerto Rican, Azorean, English, Scottish, German, Irish, Swiss, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian ancestry

    I am related to many Americans in many different ways.

    I have always rejected the one drop rule and now reject the social constructs of race.

    human beings are far too diverse to pin them down as black, white, yellow, red, brown
    The African continent is super-diverse with thousands of ethnic groups.
    The African country Nigeria has over 200 ethnic groups.
    The Asian country China has over 50 ethnic groups.


    I also think people get color, ethnicity, and race mixed up.

    "black" people usually don't have skin the color of jet
    "white" people usually don't have skin the color of milk


    African is not the same as black
    European is not the same was white
    Asian is definitely not synonymous with any color, but some people equate East Asians with yellow even though there are some East Asians that might have skin colors similar to Europeans


    there are Melanesians and native Australians that are dark as some of the darkest Africans, and Africans are genetically closer to Europeans than they are to Melanesians and native Australians
    This is stuff that I read about as a teenager in the 1980s
    I was curious about race and what makes up a race

    I have been interested in Genetic Genealogy since I first tested in 2011
    I have accounts at 23andme, Ancestry, FamilyTreeDNA, MyHeritage, GEDmatch.
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  12. #192
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Plus, Dean Cain could pass for white, and visually looked like the traditional image of Superman.

    Ditto with Jason Momoa for Aquaman (he looks more like the 90's bearded version of Aquaman, than the 90's Aquaman looks like the orange-shirted Silver Age Aquaman!)

    Also, visuals and faithfulness to the source material aside, they weren't trying to make a political point.

    Notice how there's hardly any backlash to Zoe Kravitz playing Selina Kyle in Reeves' Batman (none to my knowledge, in fact). Or, for that matter, Jeffrey Wright playing Gordon. Kravitz visually looks like she can pass for the comic-book Selina. Wright doesn't look at all like comic-book Gordon, but even so, its a case of relatively non-controversial color-blind casting and not a front in the culture wars.
    Exactly, they cast an actor who looked like the character. But like you said... why would they do otherwise? they really had nothing to gain by trying to "make a statement".

  13. #193
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    I'd say a lot depends on whether you want a story that presents the world as it is or a story that presents the world as you'd like it to be.

    I see Superman as an aspirational character. There certainly are a lot of Elseworlds which promote pessimism, but I want a Superman that gives me hope.
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  14. #194
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I'd say a lot depends on whether you want a story that presents the world as it is or a story that presents the world as you'd like it to be.

    I see Superman as an aspirational character. There certainly are a lot of Elseworlds which promote pessimism, but I want a Superman that gives me hope.
    What sort of hope does superman bring with him being just fluff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I think so too, and I think we kind of already know the answer. "How would people react to a Black Superman?" I think kind of like they are reacting now. I said this earlier, I live with a Scottish Ninja being one of my favorite heroes. I think I also love a Canadian Samurai. The Lone Ranger, Zorro, I believe they have origins in people of color. Zorro in particular was based on a native resistance fighter rather than a Spanish landowner. Watchman the HBO series pointed out how Bass Reeves was instrumental to the Lone Ranger and maybe superheroes in general. "What if Superman had always been Black?!?"
    This.pretty much.this.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-02-2021 at 09:21 PM.
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  15. #195
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Thanks! I get comic fans, I am a comic fan. We like things the way they are, we notice the number of tears on comic covers. For me, I just think, what would the Kents have done, had they opened that Space Crib, and seen a baby darker than they were. To my mind, Jor-El only aims them at the Kents if what the baby looks like doesn't matter. I pretty much can guarantee the new Superman Movie won't feature a Black Clark Kent, but he will be Kal-El of Krypton. That doesn't mean we don't see Val Zod, Smallville Kent or whoever, in fact, it will be the opposite. Ms. Marvel has done it pretty effortlessly and I hope that TV show is good. Also fans probably can name 4 to 5 different Clark Kents from movies and television. The brand will be fine!

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