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  1. #196
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    I haven't seen the movie BLACK PANTHER, but my understanding is it's aspirational, like Wonder Woman with the Amazons. It presents an idealized society. Something to aim for. So that's what I mean by aspirational.

    With a black Superman that might mean showing people of colour on Krypton living in a kind of Camelot. Or it might mean that in this alternate reality U.S.A., peace and understanding has been achieved. It sets an example for people, to show how we can be better and do the right thing. I don't see that as fluff. It's the opposite--it's what we all are here to do--to make the world a better place.
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  2. #197
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    what's the need for a superman in an ideal society?where peace and understanding has been reached.superman existed because "exceptional beings" had to hide who they are and their "great strengths".so,there were things to fix. things that required an outlaw at that.without there being a personal thing to fix or even tear down or build in the world.There wouldn't be a need for superman or superman wouldn't exist.But,superman himself is optimistic ideal.not his world.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  3. #198
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    What sort of hope does superman bring with him being just fluff?
    Is he? The idea is that the world around him is very imperfect, but he's trying to make it perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    Thanks! I get comic fans, I am a comic fan. We like things the way they are, we notice the number of tears on comic covers. For me, I just think, what would the Kents have done, had they opened that Space Crib, and seen a baby darker than they were. To my mind, Jor-El only aims them at the Kents if what the baby looks like doesn't matter.
    Now this brings up an interesting question. Why Earth? jor-El chose a planet with people that looked "similar" to the people of Kryptonopolis on Krypton. Presumably this is similar to the extent that you need to look very carefully to realize they're different species. He could have sent Kal-El to Korugar if the skin color didn't matter. Yeah Korugarans are pretty much the same as Humans... but with red skin. So everyone would know he wasn't Korugaran. Could he live there? sure. Would he always feel like an outsider? yes.
    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20130718155203
    Yes, Thaal Sinestro is from Korugar. But in that picture... how many Humans are there? hehehehe....
    I pretty much can guarantee the new Superman Movie won't feature a Black Clark Kent, but he will be Kal-El of Krypton. That doesn't mean we don't see Val Zod, Smallville Kent or whoever, in fact, it will be the opposite. Ms. Marvel has done it pretty effortlessly and I hope that TV show is good. Also fans probably can name 4 to 5 different Clark Kents from movies and television. The brand will be fine!

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Now this brings up an interesting question. Why Earth? jor-El chose a planet with people that looked "similar" to the people of Kryptonopolis on Krypton.
    This touches on something off topic that I'm quite peevish about. I don't like how the origin of Superman has been overembellished. In the straight Jerry Siegel origin, Jor-L and Lora have no time to think about where they're sending Kal-L. They only have seconds. Quick put him in this model rocket. Now, now, now. Blast. Kablooey goes the planet.

    You'd think that creators would be trying to get away from the embroidery of the Weisinger era and bring Superman back to basics, but instead they attach more filigree with each new retcon.

    I don't believe that Jor-L knew where he was sending his kid. He was just trying to prevent the infant from being killed at that moment. The rocket was a life-boat, but there was no way to know where it would end up.

    At best, the rocket's onboard computer system was so advanced that it could seek out likely planets and then warp through space to get there.
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  5. #200
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I thought I was making that part up! I actually don’t think I read it!

  6. #201
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    This touches on something off topic that I'm quite peevish about. I don't like how the origin of Superman has been overembellished. In the straight Jerry Siegel origin, Jor-L and Lora have no time to think about where they're sending Kal-L. They only have seconds. Quick put him in this model rocket. Now, now, now. Blast. Kablooey goes the planet.

    You'd think that creators would be trying to get away from the embroidery of the Weisinger era and bring Superman back to basics, but instead they attach more filigree with each new retcon.

    I don't believe that Jor-L knew where he was sending his kid. He was just trying to prevent the infant from being killed at that moment. The rocket was a life-boat, but there was no way to know where it would end up.

    At best, the rocket's onboard computer system was so advanced that it could seek out likely planets and then warp through space to get there.
    This is one of the more defining questions.... how much did the people of Krypton know about life on other planets? Did they know what Earth was like?

  7. #202
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    i don't know. I mean what will it add in making Clark black? If this is Clark and not mulitverse of Superman. It's the same with at first changing Wally West but changing him back. Saying it was just another cousin. It's more f they want diversity without trying at least in the comics. In the movie they can get away with it a bit more depending on how they go along with it. Like if it will be in the same universe as the main films or it's own thing. If they did it just to have a black hero they already have many. But I just hope they want to open up the world.

  8. #203
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    I think I care more about keeping his design consistent than what his "ethnicity" is.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    This touches on something off topic that I'm quite peevish about. I don't like how the origin of Superman has been overembellished. In the straight Jerry Siegel origin, Jor-L and Lora have no time to think about where they're sending Kal-L. They only have seconds. Quick put him in this model rocket. Now, now, now. Blast. Kablooey goes the planet.

    You'd think that creators would be trying to get away from the embroidery of the Weisinger era and bring Superman back to basics, but instead they attach more filigree with each new retcon.

    I don't believe that Jor-L knew where he was sending his kid. He was just trying to prevent the infant from being killed at that moment. The rocket was a life-boat, but there was no way to know where it would end up.

    At best, the rocket's onboard computer system was so advanced that it could seek out likely planets and then warp through space to get there.
    I actually think this is the kind of expansion that makes sense actually. They are trying to save their child, and if they'd been planning it for a while, it makes sense that they'd want to send their child somewhere where he would be accepted and be able to lead, at the very least, a decent life.

    Now the degree to which they have control over the outcome varies. You have versions where Jor-El and Lara just know that earth can support a Kryptonian life. You have versions where they know that the yellow son will give Kal-El powers. You have versions where they know a bit about the state of human society and want Kal-El to inspire them. You even have versions where they, in some way or the other, virtually 'choose' Jonathan and Martha as adoptive parents for their child. Or at least, the United States or Kansas as a 'good' location to send their child too.

    Its an interesting thought though...if we assume that Jor-El and Lara had some choice/control in which part of earth Kal-El landed, or what kind of society would he grow up in, could they deliberately have ensured he'd be found by people who visually looked like him, down to skin color? In other words, did the 'white Kryptonian' El couple choose the 'white human' Kent couple (or someone like them) as their son's adoptive parents?

    And conversely, in the case of Calvin Ellis (don't know his Kryptonian name), did his parents send him to a part of earth, or the United States, where he'd be found by black people?

  10. #205
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think the more planning gets written into Jor-El's attempt to save baby Kal-El, the more it invites scrutiny into why he only built a small rocket for one infant. If the rocket was something he had to assemble in a compacted time frame, it kind of explains why it's so small that only one baby out of the entire planet could be saved.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think the more planning gets written into Jor-El's attempt to save baby Kal-El, the more it invites scrutiny into why he only built a small rocket for one infant. If the rocket was something he had to assemble in a compacted time frame, it kind of explains why it's so small that only one baby out of the entire planet could be saved.
    Well...in some versions (most versions actually), Jor-El wanted to save the entire planet. But the Science Council didn't believe his findings of Krypton's impending doom (or chose not to believe it). So he ultimately decided to just save Kal-El.

  12. #207
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    Originally, the rocket was a test model Jor-El was working on. It was only big enough for a baby.

  13. #208
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  14. #209
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Well...in some versions (most versions actually), Jor-El wanted to save the entire planet. But the Science Council didn't believe his findings of Krypton's impending doom (or chose not to believe it). So he ultimately decided to just save Kal-El.
    Quote Originally Posted by williamtheday View Post
    Originally, the rocket was a test model Jor-El was working on. It was only big enough for a baby.
    Yeah, I know. But if you give Jor-El more and more prep time to prepare Kal's exodus, it starts raising the question why did he design a small rocket? It's why I'm kind of in favor that there were more unknown variables when he sent off Kal. Not entirely in favor, but I kind of like the sense of urgency and lack of prep time.

  15. #210
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Yeah, I know. But if you give Jor-El more and more prep time to prepare Kal's exodus, it starts raising the question why did he design a small rocket? It's why I'm kind of in favor that there were more unknown variables when he sent off Kal. Not entirely in favor, but I kind of like the sense of urgency and lack of prep time.
    Krypton has a higher gravity and they have major storm.Though these people were masters in creating light weight vehicles.But,that doesn't mean there weren't physical constraints.Notice how jor el asks the council to build thousands of great ships,Instead on one nova's arc with everything accounted for(something scifi movies always go for example:-wall e movie).Although i am with you on the long drawn out narrative on superman's origins.It doesn't really matter in the long run.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

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