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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Yeah, I know. But if you give Jor-El more and more prep time to prepare Kal's exodus, it starts raising the question why did he design a small rocket? It's why I'm kind of in favor that there were more unknown variables when he sent off Kal. Not entirely in favor, but I kind of like the sense of urgency and lack of prep time.
    This, and also I like the little thing with Byrne’s origin in that Kryptonians couldn’t leave the planet due to genetic engineering, but since Kal was an fetus in a birthing matrix, that part of the gene splicing never developed yet.

  2. #212
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Yeah, I know. But if you give Jor-El more and more prep time to prepare Kal's exodus, it starts raising the question why did he design a small rocket? It's why I'm kind of in favor that there were more unknown variables when he sent off Kal. Not entirely in favor, but I kind of like the sense of urgency and lack of prep time.
    I think I agree. I kinda go back and forth on this one, and there's a lot of rich stuff you can do with either approach; the "hail mary" of the El's sending their son into the complete unknown is pretty rich thematically, but Jor having more knowledge of where he's sending his kid has a lot to offer too.

    The less the El's know the fewer questions your raise, like "why didn't they send Clark to Rann or Daxam, some like-minded planet where Clark's life would be full of opportunity? Or even Almerac, where his superior genetics would ensure a life of luxury?" But the El's sending Clark to earth specifically, and their reasons for it, tells us a whole lot about them as people and Krypton as a culture.

    I guess I'm good for either option. Though I have kicked around the idea (or maybe I stole it from one of you and forgot) of Lara going with Kal, but dying on the trip.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  3. #213
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think I agree. I kinda go back and forth on this one, and there's a lot of rich stuff you can do with either approach; the "hail mary" of the El's sending their son into the complete unknown is pretty rich thematically, but Jor having more knowledge of where he's sending his kid has a lot to offer too.

    The less the El's know the fewer questions your raise, like "why didn't they send Clark to Rann or Daxam, some like-minded planet where Clark's life would be full of opportunity? Or even Almerac, where his superior genetics would ensure a life of luxury?" But the El's sending Clark to earth specifically, and their reasons for it, tells us a whole lot about them as people and Krypton as a culture.

    I guess I'm good for either option. Though I have kicked around the idea (or maybe I stole it from one of you and forgot) of Lara going with Kal, but dying on the trip.
    This. I fluctuate on which I prefer. On any given Sunday if asked, I prefer the "hail Mary" but if I am tasked to write it, I like a Jor-El who at least has an idea of where his boy's going. That said, I hate the idea of him knowing about how Kryptonians would react to a yellow sun. I think it's better when all he knows is that Clark will survive there. He shouldn't be thinking about making his boy a god when faced with extinction. He should just want him to live. Play up the desperation of those doomed scientists.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think I agree. I kinda go back and forth on this one, and there's a lot of rich stuff you can do with either approach; the "hail mary" of the El's sending their son into the complete unknown is pretty rich thematically, but Jor having more knowledge of where he's sending his kid has a lot to offer too.

    The less the El's know the fewer questions your raise, like "why didn't they send Clark to Rann or Daxam, some like-minded planet where Clark's life would be full of opportunity? Or even Almerac, where his superior genetics would ensure a life of luxury?" But the El's sending Clark to earth specifically, and their reasons for it, tells us a whole lot about them as people and Krypton as a culture.

    I guess I'm good for either option. Though I have kicked around the idea (or maybe I stole it from one of you and forgot) of Lara going with Kal, but dying on the trip.
    The problem with a "Hail Mary" is that there's no guarantee that Kal-El would survive. I mean, he could have ended up on a planet with a weaker sun and died an early horrible death, or lived life as a sickly or crippled person. He could have ended up in the middle of an intergalactic war. Or on another dying planet.

    It makes sense for Jor-El to have done some research.

    Plus, the idea that Earth was on Krypton's radar, that Kryptonians had visited it before in a bygone age of space exploration, is an interesting one filled with rich possibilities.

    The only part I don't care for when it comes to Jor-El and Lara is their giving Kal-El a "mission" to become Superman. Maybe they can record a holographic message about his powers, and about how he can be an inspiration for humanity...but straight up telling him to become a superhero and giving him the suit is a bit too much (one thing I didn't like about the Donner version. MOS had him get the suit from Jor-El, but not the mission exactly - he decides to become Superman at the end all on his own).

  5. #215
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The problem with a "Hail Mary" is that there's no guarantee that Kal-El would survive. I mean, he could have ended up on a planet with a weaker sun and died an early horrible death, or lived life as a sickly or crippled person. He could have ended up in the middle of an intergalactic war. Or on another dying planet.

    It makes sense for Jor-El to have done some research.

    Plus, the idea that Earth was on Krypton's radar, that Kryptonians had visited it before in a bygone age of space exploration, is an interesting one filled with rich possibilities.

    The only part I don't care for when it comes to Jor-El and Lara is their giving Kal-El a "mission" to become Superman. Maybe they can record a holographic message about his powers, and about how he can be an inspiration for humanity...but straight up telling him to become a superhero and giving him the suit is a bit too much (one thing I didn't like about the Donner version. MOS had him get the suit from Jor-El, but not the mission exactly - he decides to become Superman at the end all on his own).
    I think the idea is that it was a chance at life and Jor-El took it because he couldn't find an answer. It's not like he had more time. The "hail Mary" approach is effectively a metaphor for doing everything you can to raise your child but once you set them into the world, anything can happen.

  6. #216
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think the idea is that it was a chance at life and Jor-El took it because he couldn't find an answer. It's not like he had more time. The "hail Mary" approach is effectively a metaphor for doing everything you can to raise your child but once you set them into the world, anything can happen.
    This.

    Krypton was doomed, so even if Jor-El had no idea what Kal's fate would be if he left Krypton, it at least means Kal's survives the planet's explosion. Jor-El's opinion was that trying anything, even if it ended up being unsuccessful, was better than trying nothing at all.

    I do get it's better if Jor-El had some idea where to send Kal instead of just putting his kid into a rocket and aiming it randomly in hopes it landed on a suitably habitable planet. That can be kind of silly in its own right, and when you consider the emptiness of space, having no set direction means the rocket could literally drift in space for the rest of time.

    I kind of imagine that when Kal leaves Krypton, Jor-El had barely finished the rocket to meet minimum (or even less) safety benchmarks, and Jor-El only had a vague idea of suitable destinations and told the ship's navigation system to prioritize locations X, Y, Z, etc. I also like to wonder what if the ship was big enough for Lara and the only reason the ship made it to Earth was because Lara had to find the right star system and steer the ship in the right direction. I don't know if there's a best way to do this. You can come up with various spins on the classic tale, but I think if Jor-El has everything planned out to a T, it kind of makes a tiny rocket that only houses baby Kal-El seem like a major oversight on Jor-El's part, or a small plot hole.

  7. #217
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Yeah, I know. But if you give Jor-El more and more prep time to prepare Kal's exodus, it starts raising the question why did he design a small rocket? It's why I'm kind of in favor that there were more unknown variables when he sent off Kal. Not entirely in favor, but I kind of like the sense of urgency and lack of prep time.
    In some versions he had to cobble it together out of random junk because it was his personal hobbyist project with no official funding.

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think I agree. I kinda go back and forth on this one, and there's a lot of rich stuff you can do with either approach; the "hail mary" of the El's sending their son into the complete unknown is pretty rich thematically, but Jor having more knowledge of where he's sending his kid has a lot to offer too.

    The less the El's know the fewer questions your raise, like "why didn't they send Clark to Rann or Daxam, some like-minded planet where Clark's life would be full of opportunity? Or even Almerac, where his superior genetics would ensure a life of luxury?" But the El's sending Clark to earth specifically, and their reasons for it, tells us a whole lot about them as people and Krypton as a culture.

    I guess I'm good for either option. Though I have kicked around the idea (or maybe I stole it from one of you and forgot) of Lara going with Kal, but dying on the trip.
    Well, Which of those planets did Jor-El actually have as options? Which is going back to the question of how much Jor-Ell knew about potential targets. That defines the story in many ways. Would Jor-El have chosen Korugar if Earth wasn't on his list?

  9. #219
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think the idea is that it was a chance at life and Jor-El took it because he couldn't find an answer. It's not like he had more time. The "hail Mary" approach is effectively a metaphor for doing everything you can to raise your child but once you set them into the world, anything can happen.
    You also have to consider how much autonomy you want Clark to have.

    If the El's send Clark to earth specifically, then why? Do they want him to create a New Krypton that takes the best of Krypton and earth together? Do they want him to just blend in and live a normal, happy life? Do they send him to earth so that we can "join him in the sun" while still letting earth chart its own course? And how much of a role do Jor-El's plans play in Clark becoming Superman? How much of being Superman is Clark doing what his father (and we can include the Kents here too) wanted, and how much of it is Clark's own, original, choice?

    I myself prefer a Superman who puts on the cape and saves lives because *he* wants to, not because one of his fathers thought it'd be a good idea. I'm fine with Clark taking inspiration from Krypton, and taking the lessons taught to him to heart, but I dislike the notion that Clark becomes a hero because someone else decided he should.

    Well, Which of those planets did Jor-El actually have as options? Which is going back to the question of how much Jor-Ell knew about potential targets. That defines the story in many ways. Would Jor-El have chosen Korugar if Earth wasn't on his list?
    Well, Jor would have as many planets as options as the writer wants. Maybe Krypton has never heard of Rann or Almerac or Korugar, maybe they have (and how they'd know of earth and not those other places raises its own questions). But the more options Jor has, and the more time he has to implement plans, the more you're going to have to juggle his motivations. If Rann or one of those other planets is an option then why send your kid to a poorly developed, pre-space flight world like earth? Because the sun will give him powers? Because his Kryptonian intellect will be a bigger benefit? Because Clark would have better odds of changing the course of earth's history and/or spreading Kryptonian influences? Because the El's considered the swift technological advancement of their own planet to be a primary reason the world became unstable and feared sending Clark to another advanced-yet-probably-doomed world? Whatever reasons you settle on, that tells us a lot about what Jor-El considered a priority and who he is, which then invites comparisons to who Clark is. So it's mostly about what do you want to say about Jor and Kryptonian culture and how that's juxtaposed against who Superman is and what he says about us.
    Last edited by Ascended; 03-05-2021 at 10:06 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #220
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    It's a comic book, so nothing has to make sense, but to make sense of how Kryptonians could observe Earth or any planets beyond their solar system, you have to bring in a lot of fantasy ideas.

    Alpha Centauri is the closest star system to ours. It's 4.37 light years away. That means if you send a radio signal there, it will be 4.37 years before it gets there and then another 4.37 years before a signal can come back to us. So to communicate, that's a 8.74 year time delay.

    For Adam Strange to get to Rann, one has to imagine that the Zeta Beam is able to warp through space to get there instantly. But even if Krypton is in our galaxy (and some adaptations say it's in another galaxy) you have to imagine they have the science to send Zeta Beam probes through hyperspace to a wide number of star systems in the galaxy that collect data and transmit the information back to Krypton instantly.

    If they can do all that--one wonders then why they can't save themselves from planetary destruction.

    It's easier for me to believe that they have an imaginary application. This is a complex computer algorithm that gathers data from all the observable stars and extrapolates from the data 1. is there life? 2. what kind of life is it? what kind of biology does that life have? what kind of culture does that biology produce?

    So maybe the imaginary application concocts a virtual reality to show the Science Council the possible scenarios for other worlds in the universe. But it's an educated guess.

    If the imaginary application is ubiquitous in Krypton computer systems--like google for us--then it would exist on Kal-El's rocket ship computer system. And as the ship travels through the cosmos, the system is gathering data and improving the possible scenarios to derive an accurate prediction for the optimum world and then plotting a course through hyperspace to arrive there.
    Last edited by Jim Kelly; 03-05-2021 at 10:27 AM.
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  11. #221
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You also have to consider how much autonomy you want Clark to have.

    If the El's send Clark to earth specifically, then why? Do they want him to create a New Krypton that takes the best of Krypton and earth together? Do they want him to just blend in and live a normal, happy life? Do they send him to earth so that we can "join him in the sun" while still letting earth chart its own course? And how much of a role do Jor-El's plans play in Clark becoming Superman? How much of being Superman is Clark doing what his father (and we can include the Kents here too) wanted, and how much of it is Clark's own, original, choice?

    I myself prefer a Superman who puts on the cape and saves lives because *he* wants to, not because one of his fathers thought it'd be a good idea. I'm fine with Clark taking inspiration from Krypton, and taking the lessons taught to him to heart, but I dislike the notion that Clark becomes a hero because someone else decided he should.



    Well, Jor would have as many planets as options as the writer wants. Maybe Krypton has never heard of Rann or Almerac or Korugar, maybe they have (and how they'd know of earth and not those other places raises its own questions). But the more options Jor has, and the more time he has to implement plans, the more you're going to have to juggle his motivations. If Rann or one of those other planets is an option then why send your kid to a poorly developed, pre-space flight world like earth? Because the sun will give him powers? Because his Kryptonian intellect will be a bigger benefit? Because Clark would have better odds of changing the course of earth's history and/or spreading Kryptonian influences? Because the El's considered the swift technological advancement of their own planet to be a primary reason the world became unstable and feared sending Clark to another advanced-yet-probably-doomed world? Whatever reasons you settle on, that tells us a lot about what Jor-El considered a priority and who he is, which then invites comparisons to who Clark is. So it's mostly about what do you want to say about Jor and Kryptonian culture and how that's juxtaposed against who Superman is and what he says about us.
    Pre Crisis there was a story where Jor-El considered sending Kal to various different planets. We see a projection of what Kal's predicted life would be. Each world had him winding up being a parallel of JLA members. On a planet that was all oceans he was like Aquaman, but he pined for life above the water. On one planet it was all darkness and he was like Batman, but found the dark world depressing. On one world the people were giants so he was like Atom, on another world he was powerless but got super speed from an experiment and got himself killed. So that Jor-El did consider many other planets and thought that Kal would be happiest on Earth.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's a comic book, so nothing has to make sense, but to make sense of how Kryptonians could observe Earth or any planets beyond their solar system, you have to bring in a lot of fantasy ideas.

    Alpha Centauri is the closest star system to ours. It's 4.37 light years away. That means if you send a radio signal there, it will be 4.37 years before it gets there and then another 4.37 years before a signal can come back to us. So to communicate, that's a 8.74 year time delay.

    For Adam Strange to get to Rann, one has to imagine that the Zeta Beam is able to warp through space to get there instantly. But even if Krypton is in our galaxy (and some adaptations say it's in another galaxy) you have to imagine they have the science to send Zeta Beam probes through hyperspace to a wide number of star systems in the galaxy that collect data and transmit the information back to Krypton instantly.

    If they can do all that--one wonders then why they can't save themselves from planetary destruction.

    It's easier for me to believe that they have an imaginary application. This is a complex computer algorithm that gathers data from all the observable stars and extrapolates from the data 1. is there life? 2. what kind of life is it? what kind of biology does that life have? what kind of culture does that biology produce?

    So maybe the imaginary application concocts a virtual reality to show the Science Council the possible scenarios for other worlds in the universe. But it's an educated guess.

    If the imaginary application is ubiquitous in Krypton computer systems--like google for us--then it would exist on Kal-El's rocket ship computer system. And as the ship travels through the cosmos, the system is gathering data and improving the possible scenarios to derive an accurate prediction for the optimum world and then plotting a course through hyperspace to arrive there.
    Some versions of the story solve the "why Earth?" problem by saying that Earth was quite distant from Krypton in 3-dimensional terms, but the Kryptonians had found a wormhole that lead to an area near Earth and thus it was actually one of the quicker places to go. And also their studies of the wormhole explain why they knew about Earth despite it being rather distant.

    There's been several ways to explain how Kal-El got to Earth before Kara Zor-el. One of them is that he used the wormhole and she went the long way... yeah 20 years longer... yikes.... Some versions with no wormhole have it that her ship got damaged and got delayed by that.

  13. #223
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    In the silver age version, Jor-El was believed by many people. They were working on a fleet of ships. They could have saved many (if not all) of their fellow kryptonians. Why didn't they do that you ask? Well they were building those ships in Kandor. They were still building them when Brainiac shrank & stole Kandor.
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  14. #224
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Playing up the immigrant angle doesnt work. How many people understand the challenges that an immigrant has to overcome? If there is anything, you can see people are becoming more anti immigrant with the rise of the nationalist parties. Also i dont see Supes goes through the same thing that other immigrants have to go through. His backstory of having been raised by native parents, his powers just make him different from most other immigrants.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 03-07-2021 at 03:07 AM.

  15. #225
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    And conversely, in the case of Calvin Ellis (don't know his Kryptonian name), did his parents send him to a part of earth, or the United States, where he'd be found by black people?
    I didn't see anyone say anything ,It is Kal El by the way. Kal El= Cal El= Calvin Ellis

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