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  1. #46
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    This is a GOOD rant and I'm so glad you made it.

    For what it's worth, I would really like to see DC embrace Lois as a woman of color going forward. She's been portrayed as Indian, Asian (in American Alien) and she's a Cuban American immigrant in the Bombshell series. She was played by a black Woman in the last revival of the musical. I think there a desire to see her portrayed as a woman of color and I think it has a lot of value.

    I love Amy Adams (and she's certainly gotten her share of abuse since she was cast because of the cross section of sexism and ageism that plagues us culturally) but I'm really rooting for Supergirl to honor DC Bombshells by introducing Lois as a woman of color. I think it's vital that we see a woman of color valued and beloved and both able to save herself but worth saving. I think Lois has long represented a powerful message to a LOT of women I know about valuing a woman with a strong mind who is career oriented but NOT cutting her off from love and I would like to see an actress of color get that chance now.
    Thank you!

    And I tend to agree that Lois is in a particularly fascinating position that gives her a loophole of sorts in her race. BUT, if they were to establish that she were half whatever, they would need to not treat her as a character any differently than she has been treated. Doing stuff like having her call attention to how hard it's been being a half white and half "input your race here" American should not be a thing. That's tacky, insensitive as hell, and underhanded. Max Landis' American Alien actually did this pitch perfect. In there, Lois was imagined as Japanese American, but that didn't change her character one iota.

    The unique nature of Lois' mom not being "pinned down" in terms of race (or even personality) leaves Lois' family able to explore some race specific topics via her mother. But again, Lois on her own should NOT "cash in" on this. That would be a shameful way to propel such a great and respected female icon.

    And they'll give a token spotlight to the beauty of a random, very dark skinned person on the flipside, but resign them to period pieces at best. But I still wouldn't hold that unfortunate implication against the casting of the "ethnically vague" type of person they often pursue.
    I hold nothing against the people that understand the rules of the game and play as best as they can. Everybody's on their grind in one way or another. Blame is set squarely on the head executives that perpetuate this practice that's older than Jim Crow. And I'd really rather Superman not take part in this by becoming known as racially ambiguous. Superman is white guy, and he's this African American's favorite fictional character. I identify with his struggle as a first generation American if I had to find something specific to me to list, but even without that I enjoy, sympathize with, and have even learned from him as a character.

    People think they're being better than the small minded individuals that came before them with changes like this, but in a lot of instances they're unknowingly perpetuating the same dividing ideals of old and truing them into a simple coat of paint. True equality and understanding is recognizing our cultural, physical, and spiritual differences, and then remembering that they are simply part of the multifaceted patchwork that makes US ALL human. That's why we anthropomorphize cartoons. The human experience goes beyond all skin-deep, cultural, and even spiritual divides. So when a writer, with the best of intentions, decides to color swap in the interest of making a character more "interesting." They are essentially dehumanizing that race.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Ah Val Zod, literally could have been DC's Miles Morales if they didn't squander it. Never have I seen such a character of wasted potential as this. It's DC's treatment of character's like this that always makes me take Marvel over DC in the comic book world. Miles is in television shows, has his own upcoming movie, solo series and majoring in marvel's biggest events, and Val Zod is in Limbo. That's the difference between Marvel and DC.
    Lets also not forget that Miles is the pet character of probably marvels biggest writer of the last 2 decades so of coarse he was going to get a bigger push that Val who was in a fringe book that got destroyed by bad writing. Plus lets be honest Marvel knew a new black Spider man would get them a ton of press. In fact it was their good press with Miles which has led them to where they are now with every character being replaced.

  3. #48
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    This is very similar to the Denys Cowan argument against frivolous token race-lifting for superficial diversification instead of good creators crafting good minority characters in good stories that have lasting power instead of riding on the legacies of 'iconic' characters that O.G. fans will never let go of, and I agree pretty wholeheartedly. I mean there's always exceptions. There's cool, diverse new sidekicks rolling in the shadow of their mentors. There's the occasional legacy that proves superior or more popular than the original (or at least equally popular) like a Miles Morales. There's related, but quite different legacies, like Steel relates to Superman by being his own, different kind of Superman. And there's the occasional switch in artistic style that makes logical sense and simultaneously diversifies, like darkening up Helena Bertinelli to look Mediterranean, or darkening Damian Wayne's tan so he looks Middle-Eastern (or even how they somehow miraculously (yet rather shamelessly) turned around the Wally West situation). But these novel occasions are not a game-plan for how to reverse-engineer original characters into something hip for "today's crowd", that thing that smacks of the corporate heads wanting to jump on a bandwagon for money's sake and bad editors allowing it.

    We need good, new characters of color. Or perhaps even more importantly ... we need really good writers and artists to tackle good characters of color that already exist! I'd kill for a Steel book right now - especially with his new status quo with Lana, or a Black Lightning book. I'm thrilled about more focus on Bumblebee and Vixen and Ryan Choi in their team titles. I wish Green Lanterns was better. I wish Cyborg's solo was better ... and that Justice League was better, because that's the other title where you can find him.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Glad you pointed out the Damian and Helena stuff. Those are very welcomed and natural corrections. And Steel and Nat are amazingly underused. I'm happy that Black Lighting is on the come-up, but I'm mad that it's just a thinly veiled counter to Luke Cage. Lighting is deserves much more than that, and I hope that the comics and TV show will move past where we all know the idea spawned from. You do more to pigeonhole characters of color when they're only wheeled out just for special occasions. Cyborg has a lot of potential, but hardly anyone wants to see past the easy stuff to get to it.

    I'm also really happy about Kenan Kong. Dude has really come into his own, and I think he can go on to be Superman's "Miles Morales" if they play their cards rights. I hope they never change his name from Super-Man.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #49

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    Question: Was it ever anybody's intent at DC for Val-Zod to actually be "Superman's Miles Morales," or did some people just assume that's what he was going to be or should have been?

    This discussion reminds me of the scene that Simon Pegg apparently wrote into the script of Star Trek Beyond (which haven't seen yet) that was filmed depicting John Cho, as the rebooted timeline's Sulu, spending time with another man as a means of showing to the audience that (reboot) Sulu was gay, and either showed or told George Takei, the original actor to play Sulu, about it, expecting him to be happy about it because Takei himself is gay, and then being surprised when his reaction essentially was, "That's not what Gene Roddenberry created him to be."

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    yeah, ethnic pandering is tricky, because if it's done wrong it gives people a reason NOT to like a character.

    An example is the Kingpin in Daredevil. They cast a guy who had the physique to pull off the right look, and the imposing skills to act the part. So what if he was black? not really a defining aspect of the character. It worked because they didn't try to act like it made the character better. If they had tried to advertise it as if they'd improved the character by doing so, that would not have worked well. They simply pretended it wasn't any different.

    Ultimately, that's the best way to avoid making diversity feel natural and not forced. Write characters without relying on their ethnicity to sell the character.

  6. #51
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    I'm all for colour blind casting of characters. Except in certain situations. You wouldn't, for example, cast Black Lightning with a Caucasian actor. You could, however look outside the United States for an actor to play the character. And you wouldn't cast a First Nations character with an non-aboriginal actor--but there have been multiple instances of Canadian First Nations actors playing American First Nations characters (and often from different nations or tribes).

    I just wish that they would stop always casting red haired characters with non-red haired actors. And it seems like the red haired character in the comic is the one most likely to be switched for another race. There was a lot of prejudice against red-haired people in recent history. I grew up in a time when that prejudice still existed. It was a kind of racism and not I'm not sure it's completely gone. So it's a little racist to replace all the "gingers."

  7. #52
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think it's only fair to note that this is a line of reasoning Hollywood has used for years for whitewashing. Since I brought up the movie 21 earlier, basically Hollywood thought that the main character's Asian-American-ness wasn't important to the story. The book, however, actually makes a comment that the MIT gamblers thought that their race played to their advantage. They thought casino workers thought that they were spoiled kids of wealthy Asian businessmen that they didn't think twice that they were putting down thousands of dollars per hand of blackjack. Anyway, Hollywood thought that this detail didn't matter to the story and just put in Jim Sturgess and the worst ever Lois Lane in the leads, alongside the Luthor with the least actualized potential, and later cast a couple of Asian actors after a semi-controversy brewed. (I didn't pick on 21 for its Superman connections, but in retrospect it seemed to be a fitting example... Perry White is in the movie, too!). I see this movie as a counterexample for the flimsiness of many rationales saying a character's whiteness isn't important and anyone can be cast for a role.

    One of the reasons I never really cared for a show like Friends is that it's kind of silly that 1990's and 2000's New York City was being represented as nearly homogeneously white. Even if you don't think diversity in itself is a worthy goal to pursue, you might end up painting a picture of absurdity if you don't try to achieve it. I think it's at best laughable, and at worst infuriating, that there are so few Asian male doctors in hospital dramas. What a joke. Seriously, visit a med school one day and tell me what you see. It would be like if you made a movie about Major League Baseball and there were no Latinos in the movie. Without sensitivity to diversity, your movie or TV show will lack verisimilitude.

    Yet, I'm not entirely comfortable once you start justifying why iconic, white-looking characters should start looking otherwise. Diversity matters. And if you don't care about social impact, then at least consider the financial impact of making sure the cast list isn't monotonically white. But stunt casting (and I don't think the casting of Johnny Storm in the last movie counts as anything less than stunt casting) justified by saying the character's whiteness doesn't matter probably will not sit well with me. You'd be better off doing what the JL cartoon did and swap out the established, white GL with an established black GL.
    I think if replacing a less represented people with a typically represented people was the equal to its opposite, you'd have a huge pool of examples. 21 is just another example of replacing potential minority roles.

    If in the one case Jordan was stunt casted (not sure how that's even determined) then there was no reason to also cast his dad as a black male as well. Peter pan was played by grown women and Arthur Curry is being played by Jason Momoa, but those aren't really casting decisions people spew hate speech over. And I'm not sure they're considered stunt casting. It sounds like a very convenient term.

    There aren't really any young, talented actors I'd like to see go for an ethnically different Superman. The role requires a lot to carry basically the whole story and franchise. Not sure why people so passionately denied a character like Heimdall, though.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think if replacing a less represented people with a typically represented people was the equal to its opposite, you'd have a huge pool of examples. 21 is just another example of replacing potential minority roles.

    If in the one case Jordan was stunt casted (not sure how that's even determined) then there was no reason to also cast his dad as a black male as well. Peter pan was played by grown women and Arthur Curry is being played by Jason Momoa, but those aren't really casting decisions people spew hate speech over. And I'm not sure they're considered stunt casting. It sounds like a very convenient term.

    There aren't really any young, talented actors I'd like to see go for an ethnically different Superman. The role requires a lot to carry basically the whole story and franchise. Not sure why people so passionately denied a character like Heimdall, though.
    There are a few complicated things in play here.

    For starters, I think there is a segment of the population out there who will always be angry when a traditionally white character gets cast with a black actor. There's no doubt in my mind some of those folks saw Johnny Storm transformed into a black guy and were absolutely livid. I'm also sure that's why there's less volume of uproar about Jason Momoa as Arthur Curry.

    With Peter Pan, getting a woman to play Peter never made sense to me as a kid, but there's a lot of practicality to it. The combination of child labor laws and aging make casting young boys for the part of an ongoing production a hassle, and now you have the choice of either getting a woman to play the part (which doesn't look right) or a man (which also doesn't look right). Maybe you're better off going with the actor who sounds the part when she sings. With Peter Pan, you can cast a boy for a movie or a short-lived TV show, but for something ongoing like Broadway you're kind of forced with casting bad option 1 or bad option 2. I think if they cast a woman for a Peter Pan movie, it would come across as stranger to the audiences, and to date, I can't think of a large-scale, live-action Peter Pan movie whose lead was a woman.

    Back to Johnny, unfortunately the definition of "stunt casting" might be one of those "I know it when I see it" vague deals. I think changing a character from white to black always catches some attention, but I think casting their father as black, hence making Sue adopted (I think; I confess to never having watched the film and having no regrets about not having seen it, either), sort of doubles down on the attention it's going to bring. I don't fault a movie maker for bringing in more diversity, and doing so doesn't automatically make a movie worse or anything. I do think, though, that there's a certain amount of grumbling about the decision that's "fair" (another loosely defined term I unfortunately am stuck with using). And while adoption is a plausible explanation, it's just one extra detail that had to be manipulated to make the story work. I feel like it'd have been more seamless if they cast Jordan for Reed Richards.

    I don't think there's a general rule for when race switching is good or bad (though I tend to think it's generally a not ideal), and it's something more case-by-case. Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin didn't bother me, Heimdall doesn't bother me, but for some reason Johnny's casting feels somewhat manufactured, like I get the impression the studio wanted the casting and race change to be part of the publicity.

  9. #54
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    It's funny that the Storm siblings never get to have a family resemblance like they do in the comics. First you got Chris Evans and Jessica Alba. Then you got Michael B. Jordan and Kate Mara. I don't care which skin tone or hair colour they have--but it would be cool if they looked like they shared the same DNA.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Disclaimer: This isn't directed out anyone in particular. This is directed at the general idea. Wolf.B, this is in no way an "attack" on you or what you believe. I respect you opinion, and anyone who doesn't agree with me.

    I'm an African American male (Nigerian and Brazilian decent), and I particularly hate it when people say "Superman's white-male-privileged-ass needs to be another race." One of the reasons why I hate it is because the instant got-to is "hey, here's a smart idea: lets make him black." That is without a doubt the most offensive piece of garbage ever, to me. Being black shouldn't be the equivalent to a color swap in Street Fighter that you pick because the default looks boring. It's downright tokenism along with the "one-gay-BFF" and "wise-old-black-person" BS. Don't paint a character my or any other flavor of the month color just to feel like you're progressive. That shit does more to make the race you've just put on blast uncomfortable. Makes me feel like the dude from Get Out. You're using the change of skin color as a piggyback. It's still racist AF if you proclaim foolishness like "Clark would be less boring if he were black." What, being an alien demi god looks mundane next to a changed skin pigmentation?

    Clark's alienation has nothing to do with the color of his or anyone else's skin. His alienation comes from being a first generation Kryptonian American. It's freakin cultural, man! That's a MUCH wider net in today's climate than shamelessly belittling the REAL issues that people of color face all the time. You're literally taking those real issues and truing a famously white character into one of those other races so you can cash in on the emotional aspect. Do we REALLY not see what's wrong with that?! "Oh, white is out, so lets move on to a more sympathetic and cool race."

    THAT'S THE ACTUAL PLOT TO THE MOVIE GET OUT!!!!!!

    For the record, I LOVE President Superman. But the reason why that's not a shameless race switch with no substance to it is because of the context. President Obama famously proclaimed that he was from Krypton (in jest), and there was a very mythologized nature to his election (for a number of reasons). He was a real world figure that was positioned for loving parody with a slight bite to it. In comes President Superman. He isn't the idea of "what if Superman were black" he's the idea of "what if President Obama was secretly Superman" with all the implication (good and bad) that come with it. There's also the bonus that he's an alternate version.

    I'll also say a resounding NO to the "mixed" angle. That is the media definition of "non threatening ethnicity." You wanna have a mixed race couple in a TV show or movie? Be sure to make one of them mixed so it's not so much of a sore thumb! Media picks "mixed" characters when they want all of the sympathy of a darker skinned character but in a "less threatening" package.

    Superman is a space Jewish man, and that's okay. That's actually really, really cool. I don't have to be a Jewish guy to sympathize with, understand, like, and root for Superman. I'm not little white British boy, but I LOVE me some Potter. I'm not a white female, but Katniss is pretty cool.

    You know what hero deals with physical race inherently better than Superman? Martian Manhunter. Know what hero can be literally any race or gender he wants? Martian Manhunter. You know who'd be great in a movie? Martian Manhunter. You know who does the fresh-off-the-boat immigrant thing better than Superman? Martian Manhunter. You know who Superman doesn't need to be? Martian Manhunter.

    Side note for clarity: My hate for the obligatory race change doesn't extend to movies, some supporting characters (case by case. But it can't just be for the sake of "adding color" because f#%k that saying.), TV, alternate comic worlds (obviously), or previously not (strongly) racially defined characters (Lois' mom is an example. Thus, this allows for a slight "loophole" in her race for me personally). In regards to films specifically, I bend my rule because of an actor's ability. However, my stipulation would be that you don't play the character any differently or in a way that enforces specific preconceptions that come with whatever the changed race is (Perry White is still Perry White even if he's black). This applies to sexuality too, for me.

    Rant mode complete. Returning to your friendly neighborhood Superlad now
    Er-- what Superlad93 said in his long angry rant was exactly spot on, perfect mic drop on the subject for me. Making Superman black just because it's trendy or "progressive" isn't just stupid, it's kind of unnerving tokenism of the sort that Get Out indicts! Awesome job on that parallel, Superlad! Definitely not something we want DC to pursue.

    On a tangentially related subject, I know that President Superman is basically "what if Obama was secretly Superman", but... does anyone else think the fact that DC's recurring black Superman doesn't have a mild-mannered side speak to a problematic view of black masculinity? Even in this thread there was someone who said "Clark Kent is white. Superman doesn't have to be" but like- isn't there something wrong with that? Superman, being white, can be Clark Kent, a soft-spoken and sensitive man, but President Superman, being black, is always KalEl. Even when he's Barack Obama, he's still Cal. Not that Cal/Kal isn't sensitive in his own way, but Clark is set up in a way such that he's primarily defined by the fact that he's not manly the way Superman is. I kind of feel like there's an element to President Ellis which troubles me specifically because... I don't know, like there's a stereotypical view of black men that doesn't allow for a black man to be Clark Kent, and that's part of why DC and Morrison gave us a secret identity who is fundamentally identical to his Supermanly self, except lacking a cape. Even if Morrison didn't think in those terms or frame Ellis that way deliberately, I still kind of feel like it's there, and it's painful to me. Black men can also be meek and mild-mannered.

    Of course the fact that Obama himself doesn't seem much like Clark Kent mitigates these concerns, but if President Superman stays mired in being Obama forever, he won't remain a viable character in ten or fifteen years time, you know? Nobody wants to read a comic where Superman is Bill Clinton.

    Going back to the block quote? Martian Manhunter should get a movie, should get an ongoing comic, and I have no idea why the hell he doesn't. Really, I don't know why he's not like DC's fifth most popular character, I really don't.
    Last edited by Adekis; 06-21-2017 at 10:35 PM.
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  11. #56
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    Yeah, but there was a black Superman long before Obama was president. And there have been successful movies and TV shows starring African-American men playing soft-spoken characters. Mainstream comic books are just ham-fisted when it comes to representing most of the people on the planet.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Yeah, but there was a black Superman long before Obama was president. And there have been successful movies and TV shows starring African-American men playing soft-spoken characters. Mainstream comic books are just ham-fisted when it comes to representing most of the people on the planet.
    Oh, no doubt at all! I'm not saying it's a problem that all American media shares equally, just that it's kind of a problem in terms of DC specifically, or maybe even just Calvin Ellis specifically.

    And also, there might have been non-white Supermen before Obama was President, but Superman-23 is probably the second most commonly used Superman in DC's multiverse beyond Superman-0 right now, so exposure plays a role as well. Superman-D (etc.) definitely didn't carry the same weight that Superman-23 does.
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  13. #58
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Er-- what Superlad93 said in his long angry rant was exactly spot on, perfect mic drop on the subject for me. Making Superman black just because it's trendy or "progressive" isn't just stupid, it's kind of unnerving tokenism of the sort that Get Out indicts! Awesome job on that parallel, Superlad! Definitely not something we want DC to pursue.
    Lol thanks.

    On a tangentially related subject, I know that President Superman is basically "what if Obama was secretly Superman", but... does anyone else think the fact that DC's recurring black Superman doesn't have a mild-mannered side speak to a problematic view of black masculinity? Even in this thread there was someone who said "Clark Kent is white. Superman doesn't have to be" but like- isn't there something wrong with that? Superman, being white, can be Clark Kent, a soft-spoken and sensitive man, but President Superman, being black, is always KalEl. Even when he's Barack Obama, he's still Cal. Not that Cal/Kal isn't sensitive in his own way, but Clark is set up in a way such that he's primarily defined by the fact that he's not manly the way Superman is. I kind of feel like there's an element to President Ellis which troubles me specifically because... I don't know, like there's a stereotypical view of black men that doesn't allow for a black man to be Clark Kent, and that's part of why DC and Morrison gave us a secret identity who is fundamentally identical to his Supermanly self, except lacking a cape. Even if Morrison didn't think in those terms or frame Ellis that way deliberately, I still kind of feel like it's there, and it's painful to me. Black men can also be meek and mild-mannered.
    That's a powerful ass point you got there, man. I've written about 4 different essays regarding this topic. The idea of what defines black masculinity is something that greatly interest me as black male.

    And honestly I can see where you're coming from this. I did find it a bit strange that he had no disguise as the president. That said, I don't think this is a direct or indirect commentary on black masculinity. I think it's more so dealing with the idea of Superman as president and all the entails. It's then focused through the leans of the mythologized Obama presidency. He's made fallible via the inherent shadiness of politics and, more directly, some of the hot button ideas in the Obama myth. For instance, we heard about the whole "birther" issue with Obama, right? Well, Morrison essentially turns it into parody by saying "oh you're worried about him being born in the US? What if he was actually from another planet." Now Cal is actually lying about his birth place, but he's doing so he can help.

    I look at it the same way that Honest Abe will never go out of style because of the myth that surrounds him. Superman imagined as the first black president has a pretty strong shot of not dying out as a concept because the mythologized nature of the actual president. Morrison actually putting down the full weight of the political world onto the character, and making fallibility an intrinsic part of him makes him a pretty strong character.

    Him not having a more meek said goes more along with the larger than life image of a president. There's an inherent Arthurian quality to the presidency. He sort of mixed Prez with Superman and Obama. However, it would be fascinating if Lois' presences finally allows him to relax his shoulders someone.

    Going back to the block quote? Martian Manhunter should get a movie, should get an ongoing comic, and I have no idea why the hell he doesn't. Really, I don't know why he's not like DC's fifth most popular character, I really don't.
    It's possibly the dumbest thing DC and WB continue to do. Manhunter has a big sign saying "I'm the answer to a lot of issues you're having" and DC's like "nah we're just gonna try an cram aspects from you where they don't really fit, and we'll continue to leave money on the table."
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Him not having a more meek said goes more along with the larger than life image of a president. There's an inherent Arthurian quality to the presidency. He sort of mixed Prez with Superman and Obama. However, it would be fascinating if Lois' presences finally allows him to relax his shoulders someone.
    I guess I don't really think it's a commentary on black masculinity, I think it's unintentional- which doesn't totally alleviate the problem. You make a good point to say that Cal's politically problematic nature, the fact that he has to break the law to get into office and continues to do so as he governs does in fact build fallibility into the character. I don't think that fallibility is the same thing as the sensitive groundedness Clark has, but I'll admit that when held up to the reality of Barack Obama's myth, Clark Kent is sort of an obvious aspect to drop. Still, I question whether it might be worth it to find a way to work Clark-nature into President Ellis.

    On a tangential note, I'd love to see a series exploring the relationship between Superman-23 and Lois-45, and whether she might bring out different aspects of his character that we haven't seen yet! For example, what if she could convince him to hold himself accountable for breaking the law in a way that Wonder Woman can't? Just one option.

    It's possibly the dumbest thing DC and WB continue to do. Manhunter has a big sign saying "I'm the answer to a lot of issues you're having" and DC's like "nah we're just gonna try an cram aspects from you where they don't really fit, and we'll continue to leave money on the table."
    Oh man, I couldn't agree more. As a fan of J'onn J'onzz who knows firsthand how easy it is to create more J'onn J'onzz fans, it's really really irritating how DC continually tosses him to the side when he has so much to offer!
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  15. #60
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Still, I question whether it might be worth it to find a way to work Clark-nature into President Ellis.
    I personally don't think it's required. I think it would distract from the commentary the represents. That said.....what about when his 8 years are up? How do you dramatize a King Arthur figure slipping back into society? The whole "king wears commoner clothes to move about his kingdom" aspect comes into play better than even the normal Superman myth.

    But I hesitate to take it there because the draw is "OMG Superman is president!" You'd basically have to keep it a perpetual 8 years, and honestly I'm cool with that. Cal works in a very pop way that doesn't require too much thought to get, and I think that's part of the charm. It's pretty strong on its own I feel.

    On a tangential note, I'd love to see a series exploring the relationship between Superman-23 and Lois-45, and whether she might bring out different aspects of his character that we haven't seen yet! For example, what if she could convince him to hold himself accountable for breaking the law in a way that Wonder Woman can't? Just one option.
    I actually think Lois-45 is the key to drawing out groundedness. Because think about it for a second, when he's talking to Wonder Woman about it, he's having a debate with a head of state and teammate. He's creating rebuttals, counterpoints, and side stepping the issue......he's being a politician with a world to save. But with Lois, a fellow "survivor," I image us seeing him far more candid and less defensive.

    Oh man, I couldn't agree more. As a fan of J'onn J'onzz who knows firsthand how easy it is to create more J'onn J'onzz fans, it's really really irritating how DC continually tosses him to the side when he has so much to offer!
    They really shouldn't have place Cyborg on the JL. He's so token it hurt. Vic's character and whole deal clash heavily with the JL, and he's usually just a big computer or mode of travel for the League these days. With the Titans actual ability doesn't matter. It's all about the big, dramatic emotions that come with being a teen. The whole idea of him not being comfortable in his skin clashes with the self assured adults of the League. No where it fits in really, really well? Teen Titans. I'm not a purist or anything, I just think it's not the best choice for a number of reasons. Could've used Mr. Terrific, Vixen, Amazing Man, or Black Lighting if they had their heart set on "we need a super minority." At least there it works out pretty well. But really J'onn is kind of perfect for a number of reasons.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

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