Darks Days: The Forge #1 Spoilers/Discussion

[Korath]

I haven't seen this discussed too much yet, but what was Batman referring to in his conversation with Aquaman? What's underneath Atlantis?

It's probably a nod to the current Aquaman arc, where it is revealed that Atlantis has stored extremely powerful artefacts below the city and sealed them for a long time.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Well, we went from speedsters to the Speed Force, which seems to have taken over their narrative, and to be a place, and an afterlife, and a sentience, and who knows what else.

And we went from Green Lantern to the Emotional Spectrum (although, oddly, Will Power - the first data point - ins't actually an emotion), and that and its ramifications seem to be pretty much the whole GLC story these days.

And we even had Adam Strange, who at one time used the Zeta Beam to get between Earth and Rann, merge for a while into what could only be called the Zeta Beam Force. (Admittedly, that didn't really stick.)

So I guess it's not surprise that Nth Metal, at one time an explanation for Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman's anti-gravity, should now be revealed to be some kind of sentient, all-encompassing Nth Metal Force, whose influence extends across the heroes of the DCU, and seems to be All Things To All People.

There's a certain repetitiveness to all this. And I'm not really sure that, at this particular moment - when we're recuperating from The New 52, and haven't even seen the outcome of Rebirth, And Dr. Manhattan is still waiting in the wings - that the DCU really needs a Big Event That Reveals Yet Another Enormous secret Behind The Whole Multiverse.

And I found the whole Batman Has Hidden Everything From Everyone - particularly "Batman has a secret room under Superman's Fortress of Solitude and even Superman doesn't know what's in it and he's cleverly set it up so that only Mister Miracle can open the door" - kind of silly and tiresome.

The craft - the art, the dialogue - may be quite good. But it's just not a direction I really want to see for these characters, or for the DCU right now.

But that's just me.

[Korath]

I've seen several people saying that the bit with the tower below the Fortress of Solitude is problematic but I'm not so sure. First because Mister Miracle leave of his own accord (I read this part as him going away saying "Well, Batman, i won't be part of your shit even one second longer" more than him being ordered around).

But, more importantly, I find that Batman having Superman keeping it safe actually is growth for the Caped Crusader. Usually, I would have seen the Tower hidden in his moon cave or somewhere else. Instead, he asked for Clark's help and trusted him to keep his words because he wanted to keep the Tower safe but hidden while delving deeper and deeper into the Metal's mystery (which is logical knowing Bat's obsession with solving this kind of mysteries). But the most important part is that he got ride of the key to this specific door. It was Batman of all peoples purposely choosing to have to ask for help not to one but two peoples to have access to one of his most massive hidden vault.

Think about it : Batman doesn't use a key to enter the FoS (if he still have one, I'm not sure) but asks Clark to open it for him, then he asks Scott Free to open the last vault. I find that there is some kind of progress to his character compared to the usual Bat doing is conspiracy full solo without trusting anyone with even a tiny morsel of his plan.

[phantom1592]

The 10th Doctor is the best!

he's got my vote. I've liked them all to varying degrees since 8, but 10's still my favorite.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Think about it : Batman doesn't use a key to enter the FoS (if he still have one, I'm not sure) but asks Clark to open it for him, then he asks Scott Free to open the last vault. I find that there is some kind of progress to his character compared to the usual Bat doing is conspiracy full solo without trusting anyone with even a tiny morsel of his plan.

Personally, I can't agree. I understand the emotional aspect, but from from a practical and logical point of view it seems like a poor choice. These people have tough lives and dangerous jobs. What if Superman dies - as indeed happened just recently until it was retconned away by the Super Family Lovefest? What if Scott Free is killed by Darkseid? Then Batman loses access to one of the most important artifacts in creation. In addition, putting it in the Fortress and not telling Superman what it is, or depending on Scott Free but not letting Scott know that you'll be depending on him (and why), isn't really trust - it's an excuse for a cross-over cameo.(In my humble opinion.)

[phantom1592]

Personally, I can't agree. I understand the emotional aspect, but from from a practical and logical point of view it seems like a poor choice. These people have tough lives and dangerous jobs. What if Superman dies - as indeed happened just recently until it was retconned away by the Super Family Lovefest? What if Scott Free is killed by Darkseid? Then Batman loses access to one of the most important artifacts in creation. In addition, putting it in the Fortress and not telling Superman what it is, or depending on Scott Free but not letting Scott know that you'll be depending on him (and why), isn't really trust - it's an excuse for a cross-over cameo.(In my humble opinion.)

Yeah... there's a catch 22 here. On the one hand you want Batman to work with his friends and allies... but on the other this reeks of Injustice 1 where he locked himself out of the anti-superman weapon after half the Justice League died and he had to go jumping to other universes to get a Green Arrow, Aquaman, wonder woman and Green Lantern.... That's just terrible planning when your keys to something that important have such dangerous lives.

Any plan that needs to you to find scour alternate universes to work... isn't a great plan.

[Korath]

Well, that's the difficulty that comes with Batman dealing with those kind of secrets and mysteries. He is probably the most suited in the JL at a mental level (that is, the most suited in the way he thinks, not regarding speed of thought or knowledge, because he is the only one who can have so many layers of secrecy and hidden bases, it comes with his psyche) to deal with this kind of things, but in the same time, he has a really hard time trusting others most of the time, and when he doesn't truly has, it's him he isn't trusting (then again, considering the whole Brother Eye fiasco I guess he has reasons to doubt himself, even if he doesn't yet now it was/will be a fiasco, I can't remember how Future's End reached the main period).

Plus, there is the whole problem of having a mere mortal in a team of god-like beings. It's one of the reason I've always favoured Batman's stories separated from much of the outside D.C. Universe, because I think that Bat isn't very suited to the shared universe. You either have to make him what he is in Dark Days : The Forge or you have to make him useless when it comes to those kind of threats. I know Batman is selling a lot of money (and he is my favourite Comics character, period) but I still think that D.C. made a mistake in putting him in the JLA back in the day. If they truly wanted a shared universe, he should have been the leader of a ground-level task-force, dealing with mundane (relatively speaking) problems while the JL would tackle cosmic/mystical challenges.

But I'm digressing quite a bit from the Forge.

[JBatmanFan05]

but I still think that D.C. made a mistake in putting him in the JLA back in the day.

I very much disagree, but I at least credit you for realizing you'd have to blame Julius Schwartz & Gardner Fox wayback in 1960.

[Korath]

I very much disagree, but I at least credit you for realizing you'd have to blame Julius Schwartz & Gardner Fox wayback in 1960.

Yeah, it's basically impossible now to separate the heroes' universes. I mean, can you imagine the madness which would befall D.C. if they said "Okay guys. Hero X is now in his own universe where he and his guys/gals are the only one heroes" ?

[Jadeb]

There's a certain repetitiveness to all this. And I'm not really sure that, at this particular moment - when we're recuperating from The New 52, and haven't even seen the outcome of Rebirth, And Dr. Manhattan is still waiting in the wings - that the DCU really needs a Big Event That Reveals Yet Another Enormous secret Behind The Whole Multiverse.

And I found the whole Batman Has Hidden Everything From Everyone - particularly "Batman has a secret room under Superman's Fortress of Solitude and even Superman doesn't know what's in it and he's cleverly set it up so that only Mister Miracle can open the door" - kind of silly and tiresome.

The craft - the art, the dialogue - may be quite good. But it's just not a direction I really want to see for these characters, or for the DCU right now.

But that's just me.

I'm with you. There were some cool moments, and it was great to see the pre-52 expansiveness restored to the DC universe. But the endless teasing -- both in this issue and in the broader sense -- is just tiresome. The shock revelation at the very end didn't leave me wanting more; it just made me roll my eyes. Maybe I should skip this event.

Also, I really, really hope that Bruce hasn't spoilers:

imprisoned and been experimenting on Plastic Man.

end of spoilers Have they learned nothing from Infinite Crisis?

[CaptainKraken]

I'm with you. There were some cool moments, and it was great to see the pre-52 expansiveness restored to the DC universe. But the endless teasing -- both in this issue and in the broader sense -- is just tiresome. The shock revelation at the very end didn't leave me wanting more; it just made me roll my eyes. Maybe I should skip this event.

Also, I really, really hope that Bruce hasn't spoilers:

imprisoned and been experimenting on Plastic Man.

end of spoilers Have they learned nothing from Infinite Crisis?

Yeah, I wasnt a fan of the implications there. I'm hoping

spoilers:

when he said "his molecules were too unstable" that it was an indication that Plastic Man was in some sort of terrible condition, and that the tank was some sort of stasis-chamber

end of spoilers

Then again, he's

spoilers:

keeping the joker prisoner in the batcave

end of spoilers

Different subject, sure. But same methodology.

But I enjoyed the rest of the story. Just hoping Batman has some legitimate justification for all this secrecy and imprisonment. >~>

[Frontier]

I think it's pretty obvious the real-world reason for JLA existing is just so they can have a 2nd Justice League book featuring their major cash cow.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the real-world reason for JLA existing is to create a new, diverse, Justice League team spotlighting other major heroes (particularly those in the Arrowverse) and put Batman in there to help it sell.

I'm with you. There were some cool moments, and it was great to see the pre-52 expansiveness restored to the DC universe. But the endless teasing -- both in this issue and in the broader sense -- is just tiresome. The shock revelation at the very end didn't leave me wanting more; it just made me roll my eyes. Maybe I should skip this event.

Also, I really, really hope that Bruce hasn't spoilers:

imprisoned and been experimenting on Plastic Man.

end of spoilers Have they learned nothing from Infinite Crisis?

spoilers:

I don't think Bruce is experimenting on Plas. I think he's probably just been stuck in that form and Bruce has been trying to get him out of it.

end of spoilers

[AcesX1X]

then why did they say "time to let him out of the box?"

[Frontier]

then why did they say "time to let him out of the box?"

I guess it depends on exactly what the purpose of the box was.

[AcesX1X]

I guess it depends on exactly what the purpose of the box was.

indeed . . .