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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Right, because fat-shaming has been so frigging successful in combating obesity. Treating it as bad has just been such a big help.
    The fact that you can only frame arguments in terms of "absolute support" and "absolute oppression" is entirely revealing. And yes, growing up realizing that being fat was unhealthy and unattractive helped me realize it was a good thing to lose weight.

    That some people don't want to put forth the effort is irrelevant to me. That is on them.

    Did you know there are cultures today that actually do view fat as desirable? That many cultures throughout history have viewed it as desirable? Yeah, the body types people like to look at change a lot. Sometimes, thinness is valued. Other times, fat is valued.
    Did you know some culture value child brides? Did you know that some valued not bathing?

    Cultural relativism nonsense is not an argument. It's ignorance of science and obfuscation of the point of the discussion. We know that being overweight is unhealthy. That less advanced civilizations did not is irrelevant to the conversation.

    And, again, treating fat as something bad, something to be avoided, has done jack shit to actually reduce obesity rates. All it's done is made people emotionally unhealthy, which makes them eat more. Poor emotional health results in poor physical health. That's not complicated. When people feel like they're garbage, it'll be that much harder for them to take care of themselves. When people like themselves, they're more likely to take care of themselves.
    When people are satisfied with themselves they have no impetus what-so-ever to change. When we tell them it's A-okay and not unhealthy and not unattractive we are lying to them to spare their feelings. It creates narcissistic monsters that require constant emotional validation or they throw tantrums like children.

    Being fat is bad. It is unhealthy. If someones emotional and mental health is also bad that is a separate matter. Saying "This makes people feel bad" is not a valid argument.

    Schizophrenics feel bad when you don't reinforce their delusions. Reinforcing their feelings is not a valid therapy. It makes them spiral out of control. They need a more complete approach to their mental health.

    A fat person that feels bad that they're fat because they're unattractive and unhealthy as a result of being fat is in line with reality. They are less attractive and they are less healthy. What they do with that information is up to them.

    Giving fat kids fat role models isn't going to make the kids fatter. It's going to make them feel like their weight doesn't make them less of a person, or less deserving of respect and happiness and love.
    Being overweight is a result of bad decisions. Full stop.

    Not everyone is deserving of respect, happiness or love. Being fat or not is irrelevant to that. It's behavior that matters. Ironically, insisting people make YOU feel better about YOUR decisions is bad behavior that reduces how much I respect you. If their decisions were good, they wouldn't need to be commended or supported in them.

    They should lose weight. They should get healthy. If they choose not to? Fine. That's on them. Society should not warp to reinforce that as being a good decision, however.

    It isn't.

    People are allowed to make bad decisions. No one is required to make good decisions. At the same time, no one is required to act like those bad decisions are actually good.

    Question:

    Do you argue that we should have a bunch of superheroes that smoke and support it as a valid decision that has nothing to do with health? Just so smoking teens and others can have smoking role models? Cuz guess what? Society looks negatively upon smokers as well.

  2. #77
    All-New Member 2cats's Avatar
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    For boys, I guess. Now that girls know it is possible they will raise their standars.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Why do you act as if there's nothing between "fat shaming" and "normalizing being overweight"?
    Because there kind of isn't. Being fat is normal. It's common. 2/3rds of Americans are overweight. And plenty of overweight people are actually still fairly healthy - there are different degrees of being overweight, after all. And plenty of thin people still struggle with body image issues, because they're terrified of being fat. Because we live in a culture that does treat being overweight as shameful. Overweight people in media are treated as either immoral or objects of comedy, or both. And that's terrible. That's genuinely harmful. It is far more harmful than normalizing obesity could ever be, because normalizing obesity doesn't make people feel like garbage.

    Like, what would be the third option? Having fat characters, but their stories always revolve around them losing weight? That actually turns right back into fat-shaming, by defining overweight people by their bodies. Plus, given how incredibly difficult it is to lose weight, when overweight people see overweight characters losing weight, it just makes them feel worse about their own struggles with it. On the flip side, if they see overweight characters owning their bodies, it takes away the pressure to be thin. It makes it easier for them to engage in healthy behaviours, not because they feel like they need to be thin, but just because they want to do those things.

    And, again, "overweight" means so many different things. I think a lot of people, when they see calls for body diversity, imagine a morbidly obese woman in Black Widow's bodysuit. But it doesn't have to be that. It could be a slightly-chunky woman with non-physical powers. It could be, as Vegan Daddy noted, a Colossus who looks like a chunky bear. It could be a love interest who's got a round body. It could be any number of things. A super-strong hero who doesn't have a six-pack and well-defined muscles, but who instead looks thick, because most weightlifters actually are thick. (Strongmen tend to look fat. Not like bodybuilders, whose looks are actually achieved through some distinctly unhealthy methods.) It's about, you know, a diverse range of body types reflected in a wide range of characters, in ways that aren't meant to make anyone feel bad about their appearance.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Because there kind of isn't. Being fat is normal. It's common. 2/3rds of Americans are overweight.
    Uh...I'ma just pause you right there. Have you never read into why this is? Or how different it used to be? You've never considered that the average US citizen is eating unhealthily? That the health scare systems in place suck ass, as far as getting people with legitimate problems help for their problems?

    You think TWO-THIRDS of the US has "a thyroid problem"?

    Heh.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Right, because fat-shaming has been so frigging successful in combating obesity. Treating it as bad has just been such a big help.


    Did you know there are cultures today that actually do view fat as desirable? That many cultures throughout history have viewed it as desirable? Yeah, the body types people like to look at change a lot. Sometimes, thinness is valued. Other times, fat is valued.

    And, again, treating fat as something bad, something to be avoided, has done jack shit to actually reduce obesity rates. All it's done is made people emotionally unhealthy, which makes them eat more. Poor emotional health results in poor physical health. That's not complicated. When people feel like they're garbage, it'll be that much harder for them to take care of themselves. When people like themselves, they're more likely to take care of themselves.

    Giving fat kids fat role models isn't going to make the kids fatter. It's going to make them feel like their weight doesn't make them less of a person, or less deserving of respect and happiness and love.
    So lets say that science has never been able to prove that there is a link between your weight and chance of suffering a heart attack and other stuff; that you can eat all that you want, in the amount that you want, and do the amount of exercise that you want or none at all.
    This same approach has worked pretty well regarding the climate change, isnt it ?.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Uh...I'ma just pause you right there. Have you never read into why this is? Or how different it used to be? You've never considered that the average US citizen is eating unhealthily? That the health scare systems in place suck ass, as far as getting people with legitimate problems help for their problems?

    You think TWO-THIRDS of the US has "a thyroid problem"?

    Heh.
    To be fair, they just said being overweight is normal.

    The statement is inherently self-contradictory in a pretty humorous way.

    ways that aren't meant to make anyone feel bad about their appearance
    This right here might be the most revealing statement.

    Assuming the intent behind something is to make people feel bad.

    What an unbelievable victim complex.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yagamifire View Post
    The fact that you can only frame arguments in terms of "absolute support" and "absolute oppression" is entirely revealing. And yes, growing up realizing that being fat was unhealthy and unattractive helped me realize it was a good thing to lose weight.

    That some people don't want to put forth the effort is irrelevant to me. That is on them.



    Did you know some culture value child brides? Did you know that some valued not bathing?

    Cultural relativism nonsense is not an argument. It's ignorance of science and obfuscation of the point of the discussion. We know that being overweight is unhealthy. That less advanced civilizations did not is irrelevant to the conversation.



    When people are satisfied with themselves they have no impetus what-so-ever to change. When we tell them it's A-okay and not unhealthy and not unattractive we are lying to them to spare their feelings. It creates narcissistic monsters that require constant emotional validation or they throw tantrums like children.

    Being fat is bad. It is unhealthy. If someones emotional and mental health is also bad that is a separate matter. Saying "This makes people feel bad" is not a valid argument.

    Schizophrenics feel bad when you don't reinforce their delusions. Reinforcing their feelings is not a valid therapy. It makes them spiral out of control. They need a more complete approach to their mental health.

    A fat person that feels bad that they're fat because they're unattractive and unhealthy as a result of being fat is in line with reality. They are less attractive and they are less healthy. What they do with that information is up to them.



    Being overweight is a result of bad decisions. Full stop.

    Not everyone is deserving of respect, happiness or love. Being fat or not is irrelevant to that. It's behavior that matters. Ironically, insisting people make YOU feel better about YOUR decisions is bad behavior that reduces how much I respect you. If their decisions were good, they wouldn't need to be commended or supported in them.

    They should lose weight. They should get healthy. If they choose not to? Fine. That's on them. Society should not warp to reinforce that as being a good decision, however.

    It isn't.

    People are allowed to make bad decisions. No one is required to make good decisions. At the same time, no one is required to act like those bad decisions are actually good.

    Question:

    Do you argue that we should have a bunch of superheroes that smoke and support it as a valid decision that has nothing to do with health? Just so smoking teens and others can have smoking role models? Cuz guess what? Society looks negatively upon smokers as well.
    Being overweight isn't always the result of bad decisions. Nor is it always unhealthy.

    To be entirely blunt, I have a lot of trouble giving a damn what someone with "there are only two genders" in their signature has to say about anything at all.

    As far as smoking goes? I actually have no problem with characters smoking, as long as it's not actually presented in a way that makes it look cool. If it's just presented as something they do, I'm fine with that. Because that would be authentic, and I appreciate authenticity.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Being overweight isn't always the result of bad decisions. Nor is it always unhealthy.
    Yes it is. And yes it is.

    You can argue with causality and science all you want but it won't change anything.

    "One can choose to ignore reality. One cannot choose to ignore the results of choosing to ignore reality"

    To be entirely blunt, I have a lot of trouble giving a damn what someone with "there are only two genders" in their signature has to say about anything at all.
    So you have an issue with science. Makes sense. Same reason you haven't been able to refute a single point. It's just been "feelings" nonsense that is entirely subjective.

    As far as smoking goes? I actually have no problem with characters smoking, as long as it's not actually presented in a way that makes it look cool. If it's just presented as something they do, I'm fine with that. Because that would be authentic, and I appreciate authenticity.
    Why is smoking unhealthy but being overweight isn't when being overweight has been shown to worse than smoking?

    Being a smoker isn't always the result of bad decisions. Nor is it always unhealthy.

    Is this true also?

    Actually I remember someone else stating that being overweight wasn't a result of bad decisions and wasn't unhealthy.

    Her name was Marge Swanson.

    She was 400 lbs and dropped dead from a heart attack at 34 years old.

    She couldn't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Uh...I'ma just pause you right there. Have you never read into why this is? Or how different it used to be? You've never considered that the average US citizen is eating unhealthily? That the health scare systems in place suck ass, as far as getting people with legitimate problems help for their problems?

    You think TWO-THIRDS of the US has "a thyroid problem"?

    Heh.
    No, the main reason people are overweight is economic conditions. I've said that previously in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    So lets say that science has never been able to prove that there is a link between your weight and chance of suffering a heart attack and other stuff; that you can eat all that you want, in the amount that you want, and do the amount of exercise that you want or none at all.
    This same approach has worked pretty well regarding the climate change, isnt it ?.
    Except I never said that. Of course being overweight is linked to health issues, though by no means is that always the case. Of course eating well and exercising makes you healthier. Nowhere have I said, or even implied, otherwise. What I've said is that the way our culture has treated being overweight has done nothing to help, and has done quite a bit of harm, and that people are more likely to take care of themselves when they feel good about themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yagamifire View Post
    To be fair, they just said being overweight is normal.

    The statement is inherently self-contradictory in a pretty humorous way.
    I mean, 2/3rds of Americans are overweight. That means that it is the norm in the country.

    This right here might be the most revealing statement.

    Assuming the intent behind something is to make people feel bad.

    What an unbelievable victim complex.
    Intent is irrelevant. When fat characters are all either villains or bumbling idiots, then yeah, that's just going to make fat people feel like garbage. When a male actor is cast as a trans woman, that sends the message that trans women are just men in dresses, whether that's the intent or not, and that makes trans women feel worse. When Muslim characters are always depicted as being associated with terrorism, that sends the message that Muslims are terrorists, whether that's intended or not, and that makes Muslims feel alienated from Western culture. Intent is irrelevant. Execution is what matters. Execution decides how people are going to react to it, and how it's going to make them feel.

  10. #85
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Being overweight isn't always the result of bad decisions. Nor is it always unhealthy.

    To be entirely blunt, I have a lot of trouble giving a damn what someone with "there are only two genders" in their signature has to say about anything at all.

    As far as smoking goes? I actually have no problem with characters smoking, as long as it's not actually presented in a way that makes it look cool. If it's just presented as something they do, I'm fine with that. Because that would be authentic, and I appreciate authenticity.
    Well, Wolverine is cool and badass, so if he smokes, then smoking must be cool and badass.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    No, the main reason people are overweight is economic conditions. I've said that previously in the thread.
    So then would you agree that a serious discussion can be had on how to change "being overweight"?

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yagamifire View Post
    So you have an issue with science. Makes sense. Same reason you haven't been able to refute a single point. It's just been "feelings" nonsense that is entirely subjective.
    You know what? I'm done with you. I have zero interest in actually talking about a single damn thing with trans-phobic people. So, yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and mute you.

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    No, the main reason people are overweight is economic conditions. I've said that previously in the thread.
    And you're wrong.

    Peoples choices are the reason for being overweight.

    I was at my thinnest when I was on the tightest budget....because I made smart decisions.

    It just so happens that people that make poor decisions also tend to be in poor economic situations. You are connecting two things that are consequences not cause & effect.

    Poor decisions lead to people being poor. Poor decisions lead to people being overweight. The common thread? People making poor decisions.

    Except I never said that. Of course being overweight is linked to health issues, though by no means is that always the case. Of course eating well and exercising makes you healthier. Nowhere have I said, or even implied, otherwise. What I've said is that the way our culture has treated being overweight has done nothing to help, and has done quite a bit of harm, and that people are more likely to take care of themselves when they feel good about themselves.
    When our culture was even harsher against overweight people there was less of an obesity issue. Also economic conditions & quality of life have been improving in the western world which further destroys your notion of "it's the fault of economics". You're making assertions that aren't based in historical reality.

    My father and I both made the decision to be healthier at points in our lives because we were unhappy with how we were...not because we were happy. No one says "Hey, I feel great the way I am. I'm gonna change!". That is ignoring the most basic concepts of human incentivizes.

    I mean, 2/3rds of Americans are overweight. That means that it is the norm in the country.
    A norm does not mean it's good. Nor desirable. Nor appropriate. Nor something that should be normalized.

    Intent is irrelevant. When fat characters are all either villains or bumbling idiots, then yeah, that's just going to make fat people feel like garbage. When a male actor is cast as a trans woman, that sends the message that trans women are just men in dresses, whether that's the intent or not, and that makes trans women feel worse. When Muslim characters are always depicted as being associated with terrorism, that sends the message that Muslims are terrorists, whether that's intended or not, and that makes Muslims feel alienated from Western culture. Intent is irrelevant. Execution is what matters. Execution decides how people are going to react to it, and how it's going to make them feel.
    Trans women are literally men in dresses. They may be men that have undergone surgery. Or men that choose to live as women. That we can still respect their life choice is irrelevant to biological fact.

    Not all Muslims are terrorists (and we have and should have Muslim superheroes) but statistically the overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslim. Ergo, when a work of fiction has a terrorist in it it is entirely realistic to have them be a Muslim and I will still put money on the act that the incidence of Muslim terrorists is WAY below the incidence of non-Muslim terrorists in media versus the percentages in reality. Which is fine. Fiction doesn't have to be accurate to reality all the time. Arguing against when it is accurate, however, is rather silly because it is a denial of reality.

    Your line of thinking is literally untenable. It would make depicting anything impossible as we increasingly segment people into smaller and smaller "identities" squabbling over who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed and who is offended over what. It becomes a constant power-grab to try an enact authority over one another through offense-culture. It is the same kind of Marxist attitude that separates people into "proletariat" and "bourgeois". It is inherently divisive.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    You know what? I'm done with you. I have zero interest in actually talking about a single damn thing with trans-phobic people. So, yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and mute you.
    LMAO

    Anything to avoid having to actually be challenged by points that they can't adequately argue against.

    Destroyed.

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Well, Wolverine is cool and badass, so if he smokes, then smoking must be cool and badass.
    Not necessarily. It depends on how it's done. The framing of it. You can actually present smoking in a neutral manner. In fact, for the '60s, '70s and most of the '80s, I would argue smoking usually was depicted neutrally in comics. It was the late '80s and the '90s that changed that. They started glamorizing smoking. You'd get these dramatic panels of them lighting up. Or dramatic panels of them holding a cigarette. That was the problem. I actually remember an issue of Excalibur, during Warren Ellis' run, that ended with everyone heading back inside, while Pete Wisdom stayed outside to have a cigarette. And there was nothing particularly notable about it. Stuff like that, I find pretty acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    So then would you agree that a serious discussion can be had on how to change "being overweight"?
    Absolutely. And that discussion's been going on for a long time. And in the meantime, I'm inclined to think the mainstream discourse has done far more harm than good, and that normalizing being overweight would probably help far more people than it would hurt.

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