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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The reason why it's being suggested now is because Obesity rates are now spiking. Obesity wasn't a health care crisis, it will be very soon.

    There are already programs like Michelle Obama's "Lets move" which I support 100%. Kids need to be advised and coached at an early age to live a healthy life.

    Telling obese kids (and people as a whole) that they're ok isn't bad but in that message they need to be told the potential dangers of their condition (which is actually fairly contradictory). Or else one is simply enabling people to continue what is a potentially life threatening situation.

    To be clear, the point here isn't too look like a supermodel but look good and healthy. Looking healthy should never be something to be discouraged IMO and young people should be advised of healthy ways to attain a healthy weight.
    Actually, obesity rates are plateauing, finally. In North America, anyway. They're now on the rise in other countries. But apparently, here in North America, we've gotten as fat as we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    Well, first of all, theres a difference between relating to a fat character and self-identifying as fat. being fat isn't really a cultural thing (or at least not in a America, since we are discussing marvel) so yeah, it's fine for someone to look at a character and say "Oh that's cool they're a large person and they're having a great time" but that's the equivalent of saying "I like this character because they have spiky hair and so do I".

    Also, the comparison you chose was Jem and the Holograms. Now, I don't read Jems, it's not my style, but I do understand it's popular with certain crowds for various reasons. However, it's NOT a fair comparison to compare something like Jem and The Holograms, a semi- indie niche book based on a campy 80's cartoon to a super hero franchise spanning the course of several decades. They're 2 completely different genre's with 2 different styles. It would be like someone who likes romantic comedies getting mad at a transformers movie for not having a believable love story.

    At the end of the day here is how I see it: Would I care if Marvel started drawing some more diverse body types? No. In some cases it would be welcomed, since this originally started talking about general body diversity, not just talking about fat characters. But I think it's unfair to roast Marvel over the coals for it. People with abnormal physiques are par for the course, this is super-hero fulfillment fantasy of course everyone is going to be idealized. Marvel can't be everything for everyone all the time. That's why books like jem and the Holograms exist; to fill the gaps a niches that the big two don't fulfill.
    Well, a lot of people do self-identify as fat. Fat culture actually is a thing now. Because mainstream culture spent a really long time engaging in routine fat-shaming, and fat people got fed up with it and pushed back. I think it probably is fair to roast Marvel over the coals for promoting unrealistic, and often downright unhealthy, body ideals. (Superheroes often have bodybuilder physiques. The thing is, bodybuilders engage in a lot of unhealthy behaviours to get those physiques. And that's not getting into women having no waists.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cykewasright View Post
    I think Marvel is doing a pretty good job already with body diversity. Also the problem isn't Marvel as much as it is artists different interpretations of characters. Sometimes Squirrel girl is nice and thick sometimes she isn't it depends on the artists.
    Marvel's getting better at body diversity. It's got a long way to go before I'd say they're doing a good job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    I agree with the bolded, but I'd add that there's a difference between drawing fantastic characters with abnormal physiques and Marvel shaming people for factors that may or may not be in their control in terms of their bodies by not having "realistic" bodies on their characters.
    I'm not saying Marvel's shaming anyone by not including fat characters. I think the broader discourse around weight generally serves to shame people, and I think Marvel's got a shitty history of using the few fat characters they do have to engage in shaming. But I want greater body diversity for two primary reasons: First, I support greater representation of all sorts of groups, including overweight people, and I think fat people deserve to see themselves in superhero comics, too; second, I appreciate authenticity in fiction, and given plenty of fat people exist, seeing them reflected on the page would make the setting feel more authentic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    What are you trying to say? Steroids?

    We are talking about he-men looking dudes, here.

    My point is that these people dont miraculously look like He-man for no reason.
    My point is that using He-Man as the standard of fitness is bullshit, because there is not one way to be fit. A lot of weightlifters look fat, for example. There is not one way to be fit. Every person is different, and even if everyone ate healthy and exercised regularly, we'd all still have different bodies. Because, and this really can't be stressed enough, There Is Not One Way To Be Fit.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Well, a lot of people do self-identify as fat. Fat culture actually is a thing now. Because mainstream culture spent a really long time engaging in routine fat-shaming, and fat people got fed up with it and pushed back. I think it probably is fair to roast Marvel over the coals for promoting unrealistic, and often downright unhealthy, body ideals. (Superheroes often have bodybuilder physiques. The thing is, bodybuilders engage in a lot of unhealthy behaviours to get those physiques. And that's not getting into women having no waists.)

    I'm not saying Marvel's shaming anyone by not including fat characters. I think the broader discourse around weight generally serves to shame people, and I think Marvel's got a shitty history of using the few fat characters they do have to engage in shaming. But I want greater body diversity for two primary reasons: First, I support greater representation of all sorts of groups, including overweight people, and I think fat people deserve to see themselves in superhero comics, too; second, I appreciate authenticity in fiction, and given plenty of fat people exist, seeing them reflected on the page would make the setting feel more authentic.
    If fat culture is a 'thing' not only is that something I have never even REMOTELY heard of but I don't even know what that could possibly entail...

    In terms of marvel promoting "unrealistic" or "unhealthy" body types, that's where I'm going to draw a line. First off, you CAAN NOT shame marvel and not shame 90% of superhero comics and a LARGE chunk of comics in general. This is just part of a medium where artists interpretation rules the page.

    Also, these are CLEARLY fictional characters. They shoot fire out of their hands. Blaming Marvel, or comics in general for that matter, for portraying unhealthy and unrealistic depictions of the human bodies is like replacing the human torch with a robot because you're worried kids will light themselves on fire, or preventing spider man from punching his villains because that would promote violence (yes, both of those things are real).

    Now again, I'm totally for body diversity just for the sake of visual stimulation. I love mark bagley, but he gives 90% of his characters the exact frame. But to blame Marvel for portraying fake characters as "unrealistic" when they can shoot knives out their knuckles or become gods of random patches of multiverse is silly, and if someone reads Captain America and is sad because they cant get an 18 pack that is NOT on marvel or whoever is writing/drawing that book. That person has the option to walk away or recognize that they are reading a work of ficiton

  3. #123
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    When comics first appeared and for a few decades that followed, superheroes were not mostly drawn as muscular or overly developed. They just had a generally healthy shape. Some may have been or looked overweight.

    Then with the late 60's or so, more and more definition, size and muscularity came into fashion with the superheroes. The late 80's and through the '90's saw bizarre proportions depicted.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    If fat culture is a 'thing' not only is that something I have never even REMOTELY heard of but I don't even know what that could possibly entail...

    In terms of marvel promoting "unrealistic" or "unhealthy" body types, that's where I'm going to draw a line. First off, you CAAN NOT shame marvel and not shame 90% of superhero comics and a LARGE chunk of comics in general. This is just part of a medium where artists interpretation rules the page.

    Also, these are CLEARLY fictional characters. They shoot fire out of their hands. Blaming Marvel, or comics in general for that matter, for portraying unhealthy and unrealistic depictions of the human bodies is like replacing the human torch with a robot because you're worried kids will light themselves on fire, or preventing spider man from punching his villains because that would promote violence (yes, both of those things are real).

    Now again, I'm totally for body diversity just for the sake of visual stimulation. I love mark bagley, but he gives 90% of his characters the exact frame. But to blame Marvel for portraying fake characters as "unrealistic" when they can shoot knives out their knuckles or become gods of random patches of multiverse is silly, and if someone reads Captain America and is sad because they cant get an 18 pack that is NOT on marvel or whoever is writing/drawing that book. That person has the option to walk away or recognize that they are reading a work of ficiton
    For the record, the Human Torch thing is a myth. The reason the cartoon didn't use him was because his cartoon rights were owned by another studio that had been considering a Human Torch cartoon. But to your actual point, popular culture does affect people. It's not exactly a secret that a lot of people have body image issues because of the bodies they see on TV, in movies, and yes, in comics. Marvel does contribute to that. So does DC. So do some other publishers. Though most other publishers are actually getting better about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    When comics first appeared and for a few decades that followed, superheroes were not mostly drawn as muscular or overly developed. They just had a generally healthy shape. Some may have been or looked overweight.

    Then with the late 60's or so, more and more definition, size and muscularity came into fashion with the superheroes. The late 80's and through the '90's saw bizarre proportions depicted.
    Yeah, superheroes were generally meant to look like strongmen, and they very seldom had 6-pack abs and well-defined muscles.

    Actually, pet peeve: Can artists stop giving artists well-defined muscles through their clothes? That's not how fabric works. More artists who understand how fabric works, please.

  5. #125
    Fantastic Member Beorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Actually, pet peeve: Can artists stop giving artists well-defined muscles through their clothes? That's not how fabric works. More artists who understand how fabric works, please.
    And you don't understand art style.

  6. #126

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    People are really saying they don't know why it's legal for kids to drink soda?

    Holy crap that is some authoritarian nonsense.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorg View Post
    And you don't understand art style.
    I understand art style. I understand that the reason it happens is because artists draw nudes and then colour them in. And I don't like that. There are artists who don't do that. McKelvie, Anka, Sophie Campbell, Erica Henderson, Valerio Schiti - people who do try to keep in mind how fabric works, and as a result, don't have the ridiculous thing with people's abs being visible through their costumes. And, like, if it's a thing where a character's costume is molded to look like muscles? Fine. It's stupid, but OK, I can accept that. But come on, artists, at least try to think of how fabric works when you're drawing characters.

  8. #128
    All-New Member 2cats's Avatar
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    The story that Sofia (the author of the article) discribed, for me, is the tipical excuse of irresponsable adults that neglected children (I mean every adult in the kid's life not just his parents). Probable that kid didn't have this type of conversation frecuent enough after an stimulating experience (it could be anything from the news, to songs, to movies, etc).
    Adult: what did you like about it?
    Kid: I liked ...
    Adult: Why?
    Kid: because....
    Adult: What you didn't like?
    Kid: I didn't like when....
    Adult: How would you fix it?
    Kid: I would....
    Adult: Was there anything unclear or something you want to know more about?
    Kid: There was this.../I would want to know...
    Adult: Ok. Let's go find out.
    It doesn't take much, probable two minutes, and it's fun, children have the most irreverent answers.
    With practice, it teaches the child that his opinion values, develops critical thinking, active learning and foster trust so that when he gets in a bad situation he would be able to analize it, seek for help and make a plan considering the bad and the good, decreasing the possibility of taking bad decitions.
    With just exposition to different media and discution he would have learned that:
    - fiction is not real, that it is just the opinion of the author on a subject. That is unfair, dangeours and by all means erronious to assign characteristics to a certain group based on portrayal. ie: All martial artists are asians after watching a kung fu movie.
    - morality, ideals and stereotypes differs according to cultural, temporal and regional context. to judge people's actions framed in their situations ie: Adam West's Batman vs Nolan's Batman.
    - the visulas, sounds, tone, movement and structure of any piece are subjected to the technical skills of the creators and the message they want to convey. ie: oversexualized characters that doesn't move the plot forward are eye candy, fan service, information to dismiss not role models.
    - Just as any other bussiness creators are trying to make a living out of their product and so they try to apeace their frecuent coustumers. If a group isn't represented yet or if it is offensively represented in favor of another in a particular product that means that that group doesn't expense enough money in it. ie: White characters in Bollywood.

    It would be very difficult for a boy to have a body imagen issue based on imagened ugliness or social preasure when he knows, by decoding what he watchs or reads or listen to, that everyone has a different ideal body imagen and that that imagen fluctuates overtime. He would also set realistic expections on his partners and others around him.

    Seriously, if Sofia's brother would have been more curious and followed his DC interest, he would eventually read/watch the Watchmen (the epitome of the superhero genre deconstraction), and all his body insecurities would have die at meeting Rorschach or NiteOwl.

    About more diversity in the media, I don't see the need of enforcing it in Marvel or DC. There is already a lot of diversity out there, made by true members of minorities, waiting for some support. They are just a search away. If you want strong likeable fat heroes that don't care about their weight, there is GhostBusters. If you want gender diversity saving the word there is Sailor Moon, with every color of the rainbow. If you want an over 50 years old mexican there is El Chapulin Colorado, helping every one that calls on him. The list goes on and on.

  9. #129
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    I'm sure most of the artists 'know' how fabric works just fine. They want to ignore so that they can draw muscles. It's a given that comics characters are 'unrealistic'. they are out of proportion, in everything, not just muscles. They're also abnormally tall and have freakishly small heads, too.

    On the secondary topic of obesity, I think convience is just as big, if not a bigger factor than economics. My family's had obesity issues and my parents were pretty broke a lot when I was growing up. My mom would hit the McDonald's drive value menu on the way home from work, because it was cheap and easy. But during the really broke months, it was oatmeal for dinner, which is even cheaper, but not quite as easy ( though still not hard.) some healthier foods are more expensive, low fat ground beef is much more expensive than the lean, but ground turkey is generally cheaper than both. Sugar cereals are cheaper than healthy cereal, but that oatmeal in a tub is cheaper and healthy than most of the 'healthy' cereals.

    As to how to change behavior, I have no idea. Stressed eating is a thing, but it caused by more than stress about weight and body image. And it isn't just 'stress' either. It's 'I'm stressed, I need cake, and it's I'm depressed I need cake, and I'm happy, I deserve cake to celebrate and it's the holidays, I have to have cake. Emotional eating can cover a wide range.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    I'm sure most of the artists 'know' how fabric works just fine. They want to ignore so that they can draw muscles. It's a given that comics characters are 'unrealistic'. they are out of proportion, in everything, not just muscles. They're also abnormally tall and have freakishly small heads, too.

    On the secondary topic of obesity, I think convience is just as big, if not a bigger factor than economics. My family's had obesity issues and my parents were pretty broke a lot when I was growing up. My mom would hit the McDonald's drive value menu on the way home from work, because it was cheap and easy. But during the really broke months, it was oatmeal for dinner, which is even cheaper, but not quite as easy ( though still not hard.) some healthier foods are more expensive, low fat ground beef is much more expensive than the lean, but ground turkey is generally cheaper than both. Sugar cereals are cheaper than healthy cereal, but that oatmeal in a tub is cheaper and healthy than most of the 'healthy' cereals.

    As to how to change behavior, I have no idea. Stressed eating is a thing, but it caused by more than stress about weight and body image. And it isn't just 'stress' either. It's 'I'm stressed, I need cake, and it's I'm depressed I need cake, and I'm happy, I deserve cake to celebrate and it's the holidays, I have to have cake. Emotional eating can cover a wide range.
    I would argue convenience falls under economics, but yeah, it's definitely a part of it.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    For the record, the Human Torch thing is a myth. The reason the cartoon didn't use him was because his cartoon rights were owned by another studio that had been considering a Human Torch cartoon. But to your actual point, popular culture does affect people. It's not exactly a secret that a lot of people have body image issues because of the bodies they see on TV, in movies, and yes, in comics. Marvel does contribute to that. So does DC. So do some other publishers. Though most other publishers are actually getting better about it.
    I never said popular culture doesn't affect people. The point that I'm making it isn't Marvel, or the individual creators, fault if someone reads their material and feels bad. I mean, it's one thing if you do something like ardian syaf when you intentionally push racially/religious negative views on people, of course that's wrong, but I think we both know when artists draw these characters they aren't thinking "Oh man, im gonna roast those fatties with how many muscles Hulk has!"

    I'm of the mindset that it's not an artists job to take reader's feelings into account. I mean, imagine how boring Secret Empire would be if Nick Spencer said "I want to write commentary on Trump, but people might be offended, so I'm going to just do a generic story that won't hurt anybody." Again, this is a fictional universe full of basically what amounts to cartoon characters. It's not a creator's responsibility (unless they actually WANT to do that, which is fine) to cater to EVERYONE, it's a reader's responsibility to choose what media they consume. If they read Captain America and feel bad because they don't have that physique, that is on them and them alone and whether or not they choose to continue reading is on them; and I would hope they could see past just an art style or someones physique to the actual messages these stories tell rather than "This book is bad, because it makes me feel bad because I can't look like a fictional character"

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    I would argue convenience falls under economics, but yeah, it's definitely a part of it.
    Which would be an utterly unfounded argument.

    Why are some people literally incapable of realizing human beings have agency and make decisions?

    We do not need an all-powerful authoritarian (somehow all-benevolent) government dictating everything people can, should and have to do

  13. #133
    Spectacular Member Materiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yagamifire View Post
    Which would be an utterly unfounded argument.

    Why are some people literally incapable of realizing human beings have agency and make decisions?

    We do not need an all-powerful authoritarian (somehow all-benevolent) government dictating everything people can, should and have to do
    Responsibility is utterly terrifying for some people.

  14. #134
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Materiel View Post
    Responsibility is utterly terrifying for some people.
    Yes, that is true. Most people don't realize this and to what extent.

    A little off the obese issue, but the woman in question here in the true story below is obese as is her family. It is about fear of responsibility, obesity and failure to change to healthy or a desire even to change.

    She works, is married, has 3 kids and a home. It just came to light that for years, decades really, she has decided not to pay the bills or know anything about the finances because the responsibility is too much. In addition, no yardwork, snow shoveling, leaf raking, lawn cutting or putting up the garbage. She does not want to mess up, do things wrong or get hurt. Added to this is the fact that she has never had nor does she want a cell phone and that she does not carry a house key when at work. She did not want to worry about these items or lose these items and then have problems because of it.

    A true story and the real reasons she gave. She really believes the responsibility for all of these things is too great.

    She does cook and cook a lot of food. But she is not a good cook. And she makes all the "bad" things one can eat and makes them in the most unhealthiest ways (oil, fried, deep fried,). She will often buy take out as a snack on top of this. Many processed foods also.

    She knows this is unhealthy but refuses to make changes, to make healthy foods and to take the extra time to not eat fast foods. Her family eats healthy at other people's homes when they get invited, so they do like healthy choices. She always goes for the unhealthy, and if she only sees little of it, asks the hostess to fix something for her "family".
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 06-17-2017 at 04:58 PM.

  15. #135
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    I don't know if the argument is necessarily whether or not it's "hard" to do, it's whether or not its an artist or writer's responsibility or obligation to do so.
    Or if it is worth doing. But, yes.


    The problem is HOW this is achieved by people who are not psychologically/emotionally inclined to do it in the right way. The article mentions how young men feel pressured to use steroids; do you honestly think this is a good thing? Because yeah, that happens. Anorexia, bulimia... are those good things? Because that happens too.
    I know people who have used steroids. They are adults, and the choice is their responsibility. In some cases, such as body builders or wrestlers, steroids are an economic choice rathe than an emotional choice. I hope that people who use steroids for economic reasons make a million dollars. I have talked to models who know they are unhealthily thin. But, they are trying to make money. (I hope they succeed.)

    As for people who have "poor body image" (or whatever the proper term is now), no industry (including comics) is obligatedpitch to them. They are not worth it.

    At a certain point, people need to accept that not everybody is going to be an athlete, a model or merely even graceful. Some of us (myself included) are shorter than average and heavier than average. (That is a nice way of saying "shorter and fatter than most others"....or just "short and fat".) Crying about it, or crying about comics that do not cater to the emotionally fragile and immature, is not going to help anyone.

    If kids cannot handle it, then it is up to their parents to walk them through it.
    Last edited by CentralPower; 06-19-2017 at 08:27 AM.
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