Four Years Later, thoughts on the film MAN OF STEEL

[Lokimaru]

That's how I feel about the way they did Pa's death - i understand what they were trying to do and the idea is beautiful, but it doesn't ring true to who they already established the character to be. If he has that much of a desire to save people, he wouldn't do nothing while his dad dies. I think it would have been more powerful if he tried to do something (in a way to not look like he's using his powers) but Jon dies despite Clark's best efforts.



"Oh, right! Muh Space Dad!" ROTFLMAO - I love that!

Is it wrong that I'd love to just see a movie of the HISHE Superman and Batman? The whole thing could be in the coffee shop, frankly. lol

Who's to say Clark even could have done anything at that point? He was only about 17 at the time. They've tried to be realistic with the depiction of powers in the DCEU. We never actually she Clark run fast in the movie, also when moving at speed when flying he can't stop on a dime so how could he get to Pa and save him in time without killing him in the process? They're just not ignoring the physics this time. Think of how he saves Lois everytime. First he matches her velocity then he slows her so she doesn't get injured from a sudden stop.

[JAK]

Who's to say Clark even could have done anything at that point? He was only about 17 at the time. They've tried to be realistic with the depiction of powers in the DCEU. We never actually she Clark run fast in the movie, also when moving at speed when flying he can't stop on a dime so how could he get to Pa and save him in time without killing him in the process? They're just not ignoring the physics this time. Think of how he saves Lois everytime. First he matches her velocity then he slows her so she doesn't get injured from a sudden stop.

In my version of the scene, all of what you're saying is accounted for. Notice I said that it's in his character to TRY something. Not that he'd succeed. To me, him not trying something breaks from the character they were creating.

I'm going to have to type this out and save it somewhere to trot it out when necessary, but here's "my version":

Everything same as the movie until Pa tells him to stop. He does at first, but then sees the tornado and just can't take it - he has to try. BUT to respect his dad not wanting the secret out, he runs over at non-Super speed. He easily frees Pa, but the tornado's coming too fast and they won't get away - so they jump into the cab of the truck. Clark has Pa lay on the seat with himself above, to try to use his body as a shield from debris. The tornado picks them up and you get shots of things striking the sides of the truck but Clark holding Pa close to protect him. The barrage dies down a bit, and Pa says: "I told you to stay. Why didn't you stay?" and Clark says: "I couldn't just do nothing and watch you die. You're my dad. (emotion building) I don't care what I said before, you're my dad!" (callback to "You are my son!", one of the best parts of MoS, imo). Then BAM!! Another hit and the back of the truck is crushed a bit by a tree, and looks like a close call. Clark, up to now mainly looking out of the truck, looks back to see if Pa's ok, and Pa starts to choke, blood coming out - Clark looks down to see that the tree that crushed the back also came up through the bottom of the cab - the one place Clark couldn't keep an eye on. I had some really (imo) good dialogue between them before Pa dies in Clark's arms, but I've forgotten it.

Now, I'm not paid to be a writer and I'm sure that someone who actually is would be able to clean that up and make it movie-ready. But the idea of that, at least, speaks more to the character than what we got. It's the modern equivalent of "all those powers and I couldn't save him" (even though that wasn't in my head when I thought of it) and it also has someone that dies because of/in spite of Clark's actions. He, of course, blames himself. And it would also do what the end of the Zod fight was said to be for - building his "rule". Blaming himself, he says that if he has any say in it, no one else will die by his actions.

But, anyway, that's my take on the scene.

[titansupes]

That scene had nothing to do with realism.

[JAK]

That scene had nothing to do with realism.

What about that couldn't happen, exactly?

[Jokerz79]

Speaking of Pa Kent from Man of Steel now given his insistence that Clark not expose himself even if it means letting people die is there a dead metallurgist buried on the Kent Farm somewhere?

[JAK]

Speaking of Pa Kent from Man of Steel now given his insistence that Clark not expose himself even if it means letting people die is there a dead metallurgist buried on the Kent Farm somewhere?

Of course not, that's silly and a waste...

....

The livestock ate really well for about a month, though...

[titansupes]

What about that couldn't happen, exactly?

That wasn't a response to what you wrote, but to Lokimaru's post above yours (I hadn't refreshed the page). The scene, as in the actual movie, wasn't executed in that way due to which powers Clark might or might not have had at that age. If it was, it would have been made clear and become part of the drama. Nor did it have anything to do with trying to maintain a realistic sense of physics.

It was just a contrived scene to make some out-of-character point.

[JAK]

That wasn't a response to what you wrote, but to Lokimaru's post above yours (I hadn't refreshed the page). The scene, as in the actual movie, wasn't executed in that way due to what powers Clark did or didn't have at that age. If it was, it would have been made clear and become part of the drama. Nor did it have anything to do with trying to maintain a realistic sense of physics.

It was just a contrived scene to make some out-of-character point.

OH! Gosh, I'm sorry! I thought you meant what I wrote. My bad!

And you're absolutely right.

[Lokimaru]

In my version of the scene, all of what you're saying is accounted for. Notice I said that it's in his character to TRY something. Not that he'd succeed. To me, him not trying something breaks from the character they were creating.

I'm going to have to type this out and save it somewhere to trot it out when necessary, but here's "my version":

Everything same as the movie until Pa tells him to stop. He does at first, but then sees the tornado and just can't take it - he has to try. BUT to respect his dad not wanting the secret out, he runs over at non-Super speed. He easily frees Pa, but the tornado's coming too fast and they won't get away - so they jump into the cab of the truck. Clark has Pa lay on the seat with himself above, to try to use his body as a shield from debris. The tornado picks them up and you get shots of things striking the sides of the truck but Clark holding Pa close to protect him. The barrage dies down a bit, and Pa says: "I told you to stay. Why didn't you stay?" and Clark says: "I couldn't just do nothing and watch you die. You're my dad. (emotion building) I don't care what I said before, you're my dad!" (callback to "You are my son!", one of the best parts of MoS, imo). Then BAM!! Another hit and the back of the truck is crushed a bit by a tree, and looks like a close call. Clark, up to now mainly looking out of the truck, looks back to see if Pa's ok, and Pa starts to choke, blood coming out - Clark looks down to see that the tree that crushed the back also came up through the bottom of the cab - the one place Clark couldn't keep an eye on. I had some really (imo) good dialogue between them before Pa dies in Clark's arms, but I've forgotten it.

Now, I'm not paid to be a writer and I'm sure that someone who actually is would be able to clean that up and make it movie-ready. But the idea of that, at least, speaks more to the character than what we got. It's the modern equivalent of "all those powers and I couldn't save him" (even though that wasn't in my head when I thought of it) and it also has someone that dies because of/in spite of Clark's actions. He, of course, blames himself. And it would also do what the end of the Zod fight was said to be for - building his "rule". Blaming himself, he says that if he has any say in it, no one else will die by his actions.

But, anyway, that's my take on the scene.

And that's why Jonathon held up his hand cause HE knew Clark would try despite everything he'd told him.

[JAK]

And that's why Jonathon held up his hand cause HE knew Clark would try despite everything he'd told him.

That doesn't explain away why Clark still listens, though. If that's me and I can possibly try to do something to help, I'm doing it. Pa can be pissed, but he'll live... literally, hopefully (if I'm thinking of Clark that is and not as a "this is Pa's death scene" writer lol).

I can see the symbolism they were going for. And the idea is beautiful..... as long as you take character out of it. Actually, MoS has a several "wouldn't it be cool if" moments that don't pay off well (within the movie itself or the franchise so-far).

[Doctor Know]

That doesn't explain away why Clark still listens, though. If that's me and I can possibly try to do something to help, I'm doing it. Pa can be pissed, but he'll live... literally, hopefully (if I'm thinking of Clark that is and not as a "this is Pa's death scene" writer lol).

I can see the symbolism they were going for. And the idea is beautiful..... as long as you take character out of it. Actually, MoS has a several "wouldn't it be cool if" moments that don't pay off well (within the movie itself or the franchise so-far).

A big theme in MOS is trust and faith. In the scene, Clark was ready to jump into action, but his father was willing to make the sacrifice to keep Clark's secret. Because the world wasn't ready to see what he could do. Clark trusted his dad's judgement and by extention, but faith in his decision. Since they were just having that conversation in the car. He kept helping people though. When he finally made his debut, it was at the beginning of a world wide crisis. He trusted humanity and with convincing (the Smallville fight), the military at least, began to trust in him.


While the death of a parent in comic IPs is always tragic (Meredith Quill, Jack Murdock, Ben Parker, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Howard and Maria Stark), someone made this gif set of Clark's decision to not rescue his dad and Barry's decision to not save his mom.

http://dailydcheroes.tumblr.com/post...the-flash-2014


It really draws into focus what the people of MOS were trying to accomplish. Clark is defined by his decsions and the trust he puts in other people (Ghost Jor, Jonathan, Martha, Lois, Bruce, General Swanwick), while Barry is defined by his tragedy and makes his decisions to try to change the outcomes in his favor (Nora dying, Henry dying, Iris dying, Flashpoint, etc). Barry ultimately ends up learning the same lesson over and over, while Supes wrestles with the things he can't change (death all around him and the world constantly needing rescuing).

[JAK]

A big theme in MOS is trust and faith. In the scene, Clark was ready to jump into action, but his father was willing to make the sacrifice to keep Clark's secret. Because the world wasn't ready to see what he could do. Clark trusted his dad's judgement and by extention, but faith in his decision. Since they were just having that conversation in the car. He kept helping people though. When he finally made his debut, it was at the beginning of a world wide crisis. He trusted humanity and with convincing (the Smallville fight), the military at least, began to trust in him.


While the death of a parent in comic IPs is always tragic (Meredith Quill, Jack Murdock, Ben Parker, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Howard and Maria Stark), someone made this gif set of Clark's decision to not rescue his dad and Barry's decision to not save his mom.

http://dailydcheroes.tumblr.com/post...the-flash-2014


It really draws into focus what the people of MOS were trying to accomplish. Clark is defined by his decsions and the trust he puts in other people (Ghost Jor, Jonathan, Martha, Lois, Bruce, General Swanwick), while Barry is defined by his tragedy and makes his decisions to try to change the outcomes in his favor (Nora dying, Henry dying, Iris dying, Flashpoint, etc). Barry ultimately ends up learning the same lesson over and over, while Supes wrestles with the things he can't change (death all around him and the world constantly needing rescuing).

Yep, that's what they're going for, and I get that. And it sounds like a great, poignant idea... except it doesn't ring true to character for me - for Superman in general but also how they've established Clark in this movie. If any mainstream version of Clark sees someone in dire trouble, anyone, but it risks his secret identity if he tries to help.. he doesn't do nothing while they die because of self-preservation. And when you boil all of that good idea down to that basic thing, he let his father die for self-preservation. That it's his father's decision doesn't take that away, no matter how much dramatic pathos it presents. He trusts Pa to die? Because "the world wasn't ready"? That's when the savior allegory stops being Superman, imo.

The MoS/Flash comparison is apt, actually, for the reverse reason that's shown. As you said, Barry learns the same lesson over and over, but he learns it because he teaches himself (or tries to, anyway, in that scene). It's not like his mom held her hand out and said "don't save me" and he didn't. He himself, from the future, tells him no - because we presume he knows the greater consequences. Future Flash knows this not because he didn't act, but because he did - and after doing so must make the painful decision of setting things back as they were and trying to stop his earlier self.

As I was watching it, I knew what they were going for - "where their head was," so to speak. And I'm not arguing that it isn't a beautiful idea. It just doesn't, imo, hold up to scrutiny. I'm not saying it's not a shame, but it is still what it is.

[W8IN4KAL-EL]

Nostalgia can carry some a long way. I certainly don't think Superman Returns is completely horrible, but it really was the most expensive fanfilm ever made. It's a good close to the Donner era films but it's a non starter in terms of relaunching the franchise.

The story of Superman Returns was horrible and the acting wasn't all that BUT the action scenes where phenomenal! I hated it with a passion the first time but when I went back and had a second look ..I was..wow!

[Punisher007]

The thing is, just saying "well the theme of the film is such and such" isn't good-enough on it's own. You still have to execute it well on a technically writing and filmmaking level. And since Jonathan Kent's death is AT BEST controversial amongst the audience, it's likely a case of "I get what you were going for, but you needed to execute it better/make it more clear."

And that pretty much sums up MOS's biggest drawback overall in a nutshell, and it's why when some people say things like "I cannot understand why some people don't like this movie," I just go "really, because I DO like this movie, but I can VERY easily see why other people don't." It's got problems, and I think that the execution of it's ideas doesn't always match the ideas themselves.

And it's just going to be a controversial take on Superman overall (and even Snyder seems to understand that on some level).

[Punisher007]

The story of Superman Returns was horrible and the acting wasn't all that BUT the action scenes where phenomenal! I hated it with a passion the first time but when I went back and had a second look ..I was..wow!

The problem is that there weren't enough of them. And if you're going to be light on the action, then you'd better have interesting/well-done plot and character stuff to make up for the lack of action. And SR, did not imo.