So why did the Superman fanbase take the 'OP' criticism to heart so badly?

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, from my perspective

1) The power levels a lot fans want Superman to return to was not his original depiction. In fact, he didn't even start out as having flight, Shazam had that before him.

2) With Justice League and crossovers becoming more and more prevalent, it only makes sense to scale him down so other characters can appear useful.

3) Superman being overpowered has been a complaint from non-fans for a while now and led to his decline in popularity.

1. Aside from Wonder Woman, he didn't have much competition in-universe and was still the mightiest. The Silver Age eclipsed that take in terms of iconography anyway, so there is no point in adhering to it. Even scales down modern takes lean more towards the Silver Age than earlier. For example, he's never stopped flying.

2. I'm sorry, but if the other characters need for Superman to take some hits to appear useful...than they're not that good to begin with. And if a writer can't write all these icons at peak efficiency while providing credible threats for all of them, they have no business writing JL.

3. Appealing to that crowd isn't worth it. They're still not gonna read Superman. And it's telling that he's trailed behind Batman in terms of popularity ever since Crisis powered him down and gutted his mythos

[Francisco]

Well, from my perspective

1) The power levels a lot fans want Superman to return to was not his original depiction. In fact, he didn't even start out as having flight, Shazam had that before him.

In his original depiction he was the most powerful guy around. That's what we want back. No peers for Superman. He is the absolute pinnacle of power among heroes.

2) With Justice League and crossovers becoming more and more prevalent, it only makes sense to scale him down so other characters can appear useful.

They can appear useful without having to turn Superman into a wimp who can't even think for himself and who gets beaten so others can look good.
He doesn't even need to show up in all their adventures.

3) Superman being overpowered has been a complaint from non-fans for a while now and led to his decline in popularity.

Superman's decline in popularity is actually due to poor writing and lack of imagination not his power level or the perception of it.

[darkseidpwns]

Superman has no business going up against Darkseid and frankly even Orion. Mongul has been plenty jobbed too. Superman writers should just focus on consistency. Being overpowered is a relative thing imo, for instance he can display a lot of power in some instances without being overpowered and then in others he could display less power and still be overpowered.

[Agent Z]

1. Aside from Wonder Woman, he didn't have much competition in-universe and was still the mightiest. The Silver Age eclipsed that take in terms of iconography anyway, so there is no point in adhering to it. Even scales down modern takes lean more towards the Silver Age than earlier. For example, he's never stopped flying.

2. I'm sorry, but if the other characters need for Superman to take some hits to appear useful...than they're not that good to begin with. And if a writer can't write all these icons at peak efficiency while providing credible threats for all of them, they have no business writing JL.

3. Appealing to that crowd isn't worth it. They're still not gonna read Superman. And it's telling that he's trailed behind Batman in terms of popularity ever since Crisis powered him down and gutted his mythos

1) Well as time changed, so did how Superman was written I guess. Also, I don't think they resort to the Silver Age much unless it's written by Morrison or Waid.

2) Well if Superman has to be toughest around, I'd say he's not that good to begin with. There's peak efficiency and then there's just being cartoonish.

3) Pretty sure those problems persisted before Crisis. He may not have surpassed Batman but I'd say he's in better shape than he was before.

Also, see my edit on the last page.

[Francisco]

Superman has no business going up against Darkseid and frankly even Orion. Mongul has been plenty jobbed too. Superman writers should just focus on consistency. Being overpowered is a relative thing imo, for instance he can display a lot of power in some instances without being overpowered and then in others he could display less power and still be overpowered.

Superman has all the business in the universe going up against Darkseid since Darkseid is an oppressor and Superman is the champion of the oppressed.
What Superman has no business is punking Darkseid and making him look like a joke. Any fight between them should be a near death experience for Superman. He should survive by sheer guile and lots of luck. And yes from time to time Superman should be able to best Darkseid in open combat and from time to time Darkseid should be able to sit him on his ass with a single back hand.

[Agent Z]

In his original depiction he was the most powerful guy around. That's what we want back. No peers for Superman. He is the absolute pinnacle of power among heroes.

They can appear useful without having to turn Superman into a wimp who can't even think for himself and who gets beaten so others can look good.
He doesn't even need to show up in all their adventures.


Superman's decline in popularity is actually due to poor writing and lack of imagination not his power level or the perception of it.

In his original depiction he could be killed by electric fields or bombs. He may not have had physical peer, but he was far from invincible. He was closer in power level to Luke Cage.

Yeah and no one's asking for Superman to be weak or stupid.

A lot of that poor writing is connected to abuse of power levels.

Of course, all this might be less of an issue if we were talking about a finite character.

[DochaDocha]

Before I came to this forum, I would never have believed such people exist. Seems bogus stuff from paranoid minds, which I admitedly am.

I mean, I know that I'm too much a fan of Clark and Diana. But I wouldn't go to such lenghts as to pretend I'm a fan of Bruce and Selina (I like them well enough, but they don't really interest me), go on BatCat threads and say how cute they are, make multiple posts there... But outside said thread spew all my hatred I have acumulated for Batso in 30+ years. Just so the 'alternative pairing' gets in the way of any rivalry.

Being a fan of Diana and Kal already takes enough time. I'm not *that* crazy. Shippers shouldn't get to this level of madness.

But they exist. Holy heck, they exist.


The 'power-level' fans tend to be more honest. When they are fakes, it's much easier to identify them. It's the classic: 'Superman is overpowered but Thor, Batman, Hulk or Goku can totally defeat him' crowd.



As to the people in the industry. Writers, directors, producers, actors. After only 3 years back in comics I have adopted some laws:

3 strikes law: I've seen entire threads of fans of Spider-Man completely comdem certain writers after a few stories. Same with Storm fans regarding Singer. With Supes, where most writers have him as pathetic in multiple story arcs, I guess I have to up this law to 5 strikes.

Duck law: If it walks like a duck... I don't care if you have him wearing a Superman shirt to pose on twitter pictures. Quack-Quack.

Mars Attacks law: Don't run... We are your friends... We come in peace...

There was that episode of Young Justice when Artemis and Miss Martian kept talking about who would be a great boyfriend for one another, only because they each wanted Conner for herself. I chuckled because whether by accident or design, it did a great job of point out the silliness of shippers. Only shippers talk out of their rears saying how great a couple is when they don't give two craps about it. I tend to think Weisman and Vietti are crafty fellows, and that that scene was meant to model the stupidity of shipper behavior.

Fans tend to be motivated by the rationale of "I like this character, therefore he/she would win an imaginary contest of [whatever]." We kind of take it personally when our favorites lose these fights, and great joy when they win. So if you want to frame a disingenuous and deceiving argument, it's easy to frame it as "Well, I like this guy (not true!), but he'd lose to this other guy." This and the paragraph above are two such examples of fake fans. They just say crap to justify their stances while trying (yet failing) to hide their own biases.

Now with Superman, I tend to feel that he's a power fantasy, and that the fun in the character is what would you do with all this power. It's not necessarily unlimited power (though for a lot of purposes, it essentially is), but it's overwhelming. I've been saying for years now you can appease the "Superman is OP crowd" while satisfying the "Superman SHOULD BE OP" crowd by retaining his raw physical strength, speed, stamina, whatever, but explaining why it's not practical or possibly downright dangerous if he doesn't show tremendous restraint. This will never satisfy the fans who think Superman should always be in harms way, but I tend to think that for a series of stories about superheroes, you can only hype up the threat-of-death level so many times before it just feels phony. The example I use is that it's not like we're going to believe the 20th time around that a random, nameless, faceless gunman will finally be the guy to kill Batman. Trivial fights and actions scenes in comics where the hero obviously comes out on top and unscathed are part of the business. You can save the "Will Superman die?" stories for special occasions and leave the bulk to HOW Superman uses his powers to save the day and less "WILL HE?"

[SiegePerilous02]

1) Well as time changed, so did how Superman was written I guess. Also, I don't think they resort to the Silver Age much unless it's written by Morrison or Waid.

2) Well if Superman has to be toughest around, I'd say he's not that good to begin with. There's peak efficiency and then there's just being cartoonish.

3) Pretty sure those problems persisted before Crisis. He may not have surpassed Batman but I'd say he's in better shape than he was before.

Also, see my edit on the last page.

1. It's pretty telling that the stuff written by Morrison in particular is generally regarded as being the best, isn't it?

2. Superman is the best, but he can't be everywhere at once. That's the whole point of JL. The threats should be so massive that top level Superman isn't enough to handle it by himself. If a writer isn't writing on that scale, the JL book isn't living up to it's potential.

3. If they were around before Crisis, they definitely got worse afterwards despite whatever temporary sales boost Byrne provided.

I saw your edit. We can turn that around and say the other characters and their fans are incapable of handling the idea that Superman is #1. And it shouldn't matter when he isn't a regular feature in their stories to begin with. The DC universe is limitless, there is plenty for everyone to do. While Superman is solving some crisis across the galaxy, Batman is solving a mystery in Gotham, Wonder Woman is stopping Circe from doing her shenanigans, etc. Captain Atom should be on Earth 4 to begin with.

[Sacred Knight]

I see zero evidence that a highly powered Superman did anything to hurt his appeal and popularity. He evolved into that massive level of power, he didn't start that way, but that evolution led to a time when the character was at his peak and has yet to be duplicated and may never be duplicated. So I think its in fact exactly the opposite. At least, there's far more evidence that going out of their way to "humanize" him by way of de-emphasizing his abilities and special nature has been at least one of the factors in his loss of popularity. I don't think its a coincidence that these days, with writers not being afraid to show him being immensely powerful and re-introducing a taste of whimsy to his world, he's faring better than he was before 2011, when the order of the day was making sure he was written as "normal" as possible.

[darkseidpwns]

Superman has all the business in the universe going up against Darkseid since Darkseid is an oppressor and Superman is the champion of the oppressed.
What Superman has no business is punking Darkseid and making him look like a joke. Any fight between them should be a near death experience for Superman. He should survive by sheer guile and lots of luck. And yes from time to time Superman should be able to best Darkseid in open combat and from time to time Darkseid should be able to sit him on his ass with a single back hand.

Every hero is the champion of the oppressed, thats kinda why they're called heroes. Superman has Zod and Mongul, he can prevent their oppression all he wants. The Fourth World already had checks against Darkseid in the form of Highfather, Orion, Mister Miracle and the Forever People. If DS is showing up on Earth then it should be a JL/JSA/TT level story. Superman solo shouldn't even register on Darkseids radar.

[Kuwagaton]

I see zero evidence that a highly powered Superman did anything to hurt his appeal and popularity. He evolved into that massive level of power, he didn't start that way, but that evolution led to a time when the character was at his peak and has yet to be duplicated and may never be duplicated. So I think its in fact exactly the opposite. At least, there's far more evidence that going out of their way to "humanize" him by way of de-emphasizing his abilities and special nature has been at least one of the factors in his loss of popularity. I don't think its a coincidence that these days, with writers not being afraid to show him being immensely powerful and re-introducing a taste of whimsy to his world, he's faring better than he was before 2011, when the order of the day was making sure he was written as "normal" as possible.

Interesting. I can definitely enjoy a Superman who hits so hard that he can send people back to Independence day. But if we're talking about evidence, I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman, and others have squashed the guy in the genre he introduced. While Superman was literally flying every single living person off planet to defend against one Lex plot, he was losing ground to the new kids.

According to Denny O'Neil, the reduction of powers and emphasis on personal life led to sales in the millions. Superman's second biggest period was his most vulnerable, his death.

The New 52 version was about as powerful as the pre flashpoint Superman. New 52 sold well in the beginning, but I'd say a huge part of that was creator driven. At least if we're looking at the difference between what Morrison and Jim Lee brought compared to Pak and Lobdell. And I do go with Lee for that instead of Snyder, because it's probably not a coincidence that For Tomorrow also smashed sales.

At the moment Superman doesn't seem all that well promoted in power. I mean Tomasi and the gang really seem to avoid "feats."

[Francisco]

Every hero is the champion of the oppressed, thats kinda why they're called heroes. Superman has Zod and Mongul, he can prevent their oppression all he wants. The Fourth World already had checks against Darkseid in the form of Highfather, Orion, Mister Miracle and the Forever People. If DS is showing up on Earth then it should be a JL/JSA/TT level story. Superman solo shouldn't even register on Darkseids radar.

Every hero is not Superman. He is head and shoulders about everyone else in the dc universe. He leads the charge when our world is threatened and yes he is a huge glitch on Darkseid's radar.

[Agent Z]

1. It's pretty telling that the stuff written by Morrison in particular is generally regarded as being the best, isn't it?

2. Superman is the best, but he can't be everywhere at once. That's the whole point of JL. The threats should be so massive that top level Superman isn't enough to handle it by himself. If a writer isn't writing on that scale, the JL book isn't living up to it's potential.

3. If they were around before Crisis, they definitely got worse afterwards despite whatever temporary sales boost Byrne provided.

I saw your edit. We can turn that around and say the other characters and their fans are incapable of handling the idea that Superman is #1. And it shouldn't matter when he isn't a regular feature in their stories to begin with. The DC universe is limitless, there is plenty for everyone to do. While Superman is solving some crisis across the galaxy, Batman is solving a mystery in Gotham, Wonder Woman is stopping Circe from doing her shenanigans, etc. Captain Atom should be on Earth 4 to begin with.

1) well among the best. And not the only good

2) honestly there are just too many refutations (intentionally or not) of Superman being the best. At this point it's more telling than showing

3) I guess YMMV

But if other characters don't feature in Superman stories what should it matter that he's not the best? I mean is that really why people read him?

[SiegePerilous02]

1) well among the best. And not the only good

2) honestly there are just too many refutations (intentionally or not) of Superman being the best. At this point it's more telling than showing

3) I guess YMMV

But if other characters don't feature in Superman stories what should it matter that he's not the best? I mean is that really why people read him?

1. What non-Silver Age stories are there that really compete with it? Pre-2011 Superman was crap.

2. So they should improve the writing and actually put their money where their mouth is with him. Just because bad writing happens a lot doesn't mean it should be excused. If enough characters are proved to be superior or equal to Superman at something, he ceases to be a big deal. DC should not allow one of their flagship characters to be treated that way under any circumstances.

3. The entire premise of Superman is to see the mightiest superhero doing larger than life stuff that still challenges him, not generic flying brick #245. It's not the only reason people read him, but yes it plays a big part.

Again, should it matter to these other heroes if he is the best? Because you seem to think he shouldn't be. When writers want Batman to be smarter, Superman is written like a dumb hick. When writers want to prove Wonder Woman is as strong or even better, Superman gets mind controlled so she can take him down and/or he suddenly can't fight or strategize worth shit. The Flash SHOULD be faster, but we still get stuff like "those races were for charity, it's not even close if I'm actually trying." Aquaman and Mera get to beat him up when he's being a government tool. So it always appears that Superman isn't allowed to be superior to anyone under any circumstances, but he can be the punching bag to everyone else.

Interesting. I can definitely enjoy a Superman who hits so hard that he can send people back to Independence day. But if we're talking about evidence, I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman, and others have squashed the guy in the genre he introduced. While Superman was literally flying every single living person off planet to defend against one Lex plot, he was losing ground to the new kids.

According to Denny O'Neil, the reduction of powers and emphasis on personal life led to sales in the millions. Superman's second biggest period was his most vulnerable, his death.

But has depowering him and bringing in the more "everyman" qualities really helped the character not be squashed by those guys? They made him more like them, and they were still more popular than him. The "Superman is lame and/or too OP, but my favorite could still beat him" crap still persists to this very day, even among non comic readers. Whatever temporary boost in sales he got didn't seem to help in the long run.

[Agent Z]

1. What non-Silver Age stories are there that really compete with it? Pre-2011 Superman was crap.

2. So they should improve the writing and actually put their money where their mouth is with him. Just because bad writing happens a lot doesn't mean it should be excused. If enough characters are proved to be superior or equal to Superman at something, he ceases to be a big deal. DC should not allow one of their flagship characters to be treated that way under any circumstances.

3. The entire premise of Superman is to see the mightiest superhero doing larger than life stuff that still challenges him, not generic flying brick #245. It's not the only reason people read him, but yes it plays a big part.

Again, should it matter to these other heroes if he is the best? Because you seem to think he shouldn't be. When writers want Batman to be smarter, Superman is written like a dumb hick. When writers want to prove Wonder Woman is as strong or even better, Superman gets mind controlled so she can take him down and/or he suddenly can't fight or strategize worth shit. The Flash SHOULD be faster, but we still get stuff like "those races were for charity, it's not even close if I'm actually trying." Aquaman and Mera get to beat him up when he's being a government tool. So it always appears that Superman isn't allowed to be superior to anyone under any circumstances, but he can be the punching bag to everyone else.

1) Birthright. Brainiac. Red Son. Yeah pre 2011 wasn't perfect but not all of it was crap just as post 2011 wasn't all roses

2) that depends on if you think not writing him as the best is bad writing. Plenty of characters became popular without being written that way

3) guess that depends on who you ask. Even if he is generic flying brick 175 doesn't mean he can't be interesting in his own right

I admit i see that stuff is pretty dumb too. Especially the Aquaman story