Beta Ray Bill vs Thor

[Cody]

Scenario 1: Thor prior to becoming "unworthy"

Scenario 2: FosThor

Scenario 3: Current Oddinson

How does he fair?

[The Dork Knight]

Thor wins all of these due to a speed and versatility advantage

[big_adventure]

What TDN said: Bill may have an edge in raw strength, but all versions of Thor have MUCH better speed feats, at least equal durability, and VASTLY superior versatility and tricks.

[The Dork Knight]

I would argue BRB has somewhat better durability both by actual feats and their first proper fight. Not that it matters

[big_adventure]

I would argue BRB has somewhat better durability both by actual feats and their first proper fight. Not that it matters

Eh, as you say, it's not really worth worrying about. But the first fight was PIS laden as hell: Thor didn't use anything esoteric at all. As far as feats, Classic Thor has better high-end feats than Bill, though clearly many many more low end feats as well (getting stunned by a drop kick from Yellowjacket is right up with Batman winding Wonder Woman with a stomach kick, and Thor struggling early on in his career against Mongoose and Cobra - ugh.).

[Beadle]

Mongoose wasn't THAT early. He didn't exist until about '86.

[Captain Morgan]

What durability feats does classic Thor have over Bill?

[big_adventure]

What durability feats does classic Thor have over Bill?

Things like taking shots from Celestials without getting atomized and such. Granted, we can argue about "really trying" or not, but it's there. Pretty early on, Thor also took shots from Ego going all out (during the black galaxy thing - way back into JIM here), and just shouted some "Forsooth" and won out with a godblast or something.

During the Skrull Invasion, the badass Super Skrull who had a Stormbringer copy and who pimp-slapped BRB was facing down Thor as a battered BRB watched, and BRB himself was sure that Thor would trounce. Which he did, eventually, after walking off shots that had (mostly off-panel) owned BRB himself.

Thor also has had a number of durability feats against people who owned whole pantheons of gods and such. He's also faced Surfer, Gladiator, etc. and walked off many, many shots.

Like I said at the beginning, he's also got a ton of very, very low feats, way more than Bill. Hell, he lost to a NON Thor'd up version of Bill, which is just ridiculous. Basically, a dude with 1000 issues of appearances has more high and more low than a guy with under a hundred issues. Not really a surprise.

[big_adventure]

Mongoose wasn't THAT early. He didn't exist until about '86.

Didn't Thor fight him back in the 60's in JIM? Maybe I'm mistaking some other thoroughly unqualified opponent for Mongoose. Well, Cobra should say enough. Cobra being a guy that Captain America owns WHEN COBRA HAS A WHOLE TEAM OF ALLIES.

[Beadle]

I don't think there's too much embarrassment in having trouble with Mongoose, cos he's difficult to hit. Dude's a low-Mach speedster, has super-strength, claws and killer teeth. It's like if someone said "let's put Luke Cage, Wolverine and Quicksilver in a blender and see what happens". And Thor didn't have too much problem with him once he got serious.

[big_adventure]

I don't think there's too much embarrassment in having trouble with Mongoose, cos he's difficult to hit. Dude's a low-Mach speedster, has super-strength, claws and killer teeth. It's like if someone said "let's put Luke Cage, Wolverine and Quicksilver in a blender and see what happens". And Thor didn't have too much problem with him once he got serious.

Fair enough. I'm far to obvious to argue with the Prince. :-)

[The Dork Knight]

Things like taking shots from Celestials without getting atomized and such. Granted, we can argue about "really trying" or not, but it's there. Pretty early on, Thor also took shots from Ego going all out (during the black galaxy thing - way back into JIM here), and just shouted some "Forsooth" and won out with a godblast or something.

SMvsFL at its finest. There used to be a rule specifically talking about the Thor/Celestials showing

During the Skrull Invasion, the badass Super Skrull who had a Stormbringer copy and who pimp-slapped BRB was facing down Thor as a battered BRB watched, and BRB himself was sure that Thor would trounce. Which he did, eventually, after walking off shots that had (mostly off-panel) owned BRB himself.

How much more powerful than BRB do you think Thor is?

Clearly (way) more than his creator thought, in his introductory arc!

Thor also has had a number of durability feats against people who owned whole pantheons of gods and such. He's also faced Surfer, Gladiator, etc. and walked off many, many shots.

And Deathstroke hits Flashes but that doesn't give him superspeed

Like I said at the beginning, he's also got a ton of very, very low feats, way more than Bill. Hell, he lost to a NON Thor'd up version of Bill, which is just ridiculous. Basically, a dude with 1000 issues of appearances has more high and more low than a guy with under a hundred issues. Not really a surprise.

Yes but by consistent feats Thor is neither as powerful as Surfer, Gladiator or certainly Celestials

So when it comes down to it, the guy who gets up a few moments after being at the centre of the exploding planet is simply better than the guy who doesn't

[The Dork Knight]

Eh, as you say, it's not really worth worrying about. But the first fight was PIS laden as hell: Thor didn't use anything esoteric at all. As far as feats, Classic Thor has better high-end feats than Bill, though clearly many many more low end feats as well (getting stunned by a drop kick from Yellowjacket is right up with Batman winding Wonder Woman with a stomach kick, and Thor struggling early on in his career against Mongoose and Cobra - ugh.).

How do esoterics matter when we are talking about their physical stats

In any case what esoterics was Thor likely to come up with in a fist fight without the hammer except maybe a little lightning

Basically Bill's the guy introduced as someone capable of "besting" Thor by the creator with the most acclaimed run on Thor and has since racked up quite a few decent feats. I don't have a problem with Thor being more durable but the evidence presented so far is seemingly based only on showings vs other characters, some of which massively contradict the original BRB story

[The Dork Knight]

Found it......

Instances of 616 Thor taking hits from Galactus, Celestials and their ilks are SMvsFL, being ludicrously above his consistent portrayal as someone that can generally be hurt by far weaker individuals like the Silver Surfer, Hulk or Juggernaut

[big_adventure]

You are presenting this as if it were an actual fight with a result that was not known before the writer set pen to paper, and not a way for the comic company to change up the character's narrative.

You can only have this one of two ways: either Bill is ALREADY stronger and more durable than Thor without the hammer, and the hammer, which EXPLICITLY amps him the hell up, somehow actually downgrades him to the point where Thor is his equal; OR the fight of hammerless Bill versus Thor is complete and utter BS. Those are the only two choices.

As far as the esoterics Thor was capable of, well, he has unleashed enough godly/lightning-y force without the hammer to kill someone who his punches had no effect on. Something like that could have been useful.

And "most acclaimed" does not mean "wrote the character's best feats," or "respected what those feats should have been." It means "wrote some good stories" and stories OFTEN require PIS or McGuffins or whatever to advance themselves.

As far as feats - it's not at all uncommon for a character with LOTS of panel time to get more high and low end feats. I know the rules, I HAVE been here a lot longer than most people. I was listing high-end feats, as requested. We can argue their validity (hell, I did it myself in my own post) but they are there. And Thor has suffered much worse than "planet blowed up while I was on it" shit, and taken it with a smile. He's also strained to lift a 500lb barbell with the Wasp sitting on one end of it that one time.