Beta Ray Bill vs Thor

[Captain Morgan]

You are presenting this as if it were an actual fight with a result that was not known before the writer set pen to paper, and not a way for the comic company to change up the character's narrative.

You can only have this one of two ways: either Bill is ALREADY stronger and more durable than Thor without the hammer, and the hammer, which EXPLICITLY amps him the hell up, somehow actually downgrades him to the point where Thor is his equal; OR the fight of hammerless Bill versus Thor is complete and utter BS. Those are the only two choices.

As far as the esoterics Thor was capable of, well, he has unleashed enough godly/lightning-y force without the hammer to kill someone who his punches had no effect on. Something like that could have been useful.

And "most acclaimed" does not mean "wrote the character's best feats," or "respected what those feats should have been." It means "wrote some good stories" and stories OFTEN require PIS or McGuffins or whatever to advance themselves.

As far as feats - it's not at all uncommon for a character with LOTS of panel time to get more high and low end feats. I know the rules, I HAVE been here a lot longer than most people. I was listing high-end feats, as requested. We can argue their validity (hell, I did it myself in my own post) but they are there. And Thor has suffered much worse than "planet blowed up while I was on it" ****, and taken it with a smile. He's also strained to lift a 500lb barbell with the Wasp sitting on one end of it that one time.

You haven't actually listed anything on par for the Bill's durability though. Just a bunch of fights with other characters, including off panel stuff and things which have been specifically ruled as SMvsFL.

No one is bringing up Thor's low end showings but you. We all understand they are irrelevant. What we are saying is that we have durability showings for Bill that don't rely on extrapolation based on the power of other characters. Bill has taken a blast which razed an entire hemisphere and bounced back no problem. (The blast came from Galactus, but that's irrelevant. What is relevant is we explicitly see how powerful the specific blast is on panel, unlike the Celestials hitting Thor.) We also see Bill get drilled to the center of an Earth like planet which then explodes, and look worse for wear but not unconscious.

What did classic Thor do that demonstrated durability on that cosmic scale? I don't want to know who he fought or how powerful they are. I know Thor is faster and has more exotic versatility feats. (Though side note, Bill has done reversed gravity, done teleportation, trapped Heralds in energy vortexes, and through a team effort as neutralized cosmic plagues with cosmic manipulations. He's not bad on that front.) But we weigh things like bullet timing or actually planet busting on panel a lot higher than we rank fighting people who do those things. Otherwise, we wouldn't cite a speed edge for Thor.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Why the long face?

I'll see myself out.

[The Dork Knight]

You are presenting this as if it were an actual fight with a result that was not known before the writer set pen to paper, and not a way for the comic company to change up the character's narrative.

Them are the rules. Consistent showings etc. Thus Thanos who starts out with planet busting getting clobbered by Danny Rand or even Carol Danvers is inconsistent

You can only have this one of two ways: either Bill is ALREADY stronger and more durable than Thor without the hammer, and the hammer, which EXPLICITLY amps him the hell up, somehow actually downgrades him to the point where Thor is his equal; OR the fight of hammerless Bill versus Thor is complete and utter BS. Those are the only two choices.

I'll take the first one. Bill isn't shown to be significantly stronger without the hammer but he goes toe to toe with Thor in both their original fights (Thor being deprived of the hammer more or less in both ) and merely outlasts him in the second fight . Thus the intention seems to be clear- BRB is stronger without the hammer

Where has it been noted that the hammer amps Bill's physical stats the "hell up"?

As far as the esoterics Thor was capable of, well, he has unleashed enough godly/lightning-y force without the hammer to kill someone who his punches had no effect on. Something like that could have been useful.

It couldn't have been. I've rechecked the fight and this is what Odin does prior to it

https://i.imgur.com/mjK1ulD_d.jpg?ma...&fidelity=high

And "most acclaimed" does not mean "wrote the character's best feats," or "respected what those feats should have been." It means "wrote some good stories" and stories OFTEN require PIS or McGuffins or whatever to advance themselves.

It also means "is the creator of BRB, had a significantly long run on Thor and thus his input for the character's original power levels should be taken into consideration"

As far as feats - it's not at all uncommon for a character with LOTS of panel time to get more high and low end feats. I know the rules, I HAVE been here a lot longer than most people. I was listing high-end feats, as requested. We can argue their validity (hell, I did it myself in my own post) but they are there. And Thor has suffered much worse than "planet blowed up while I was on it" ****, and taken it with a smile. He's also strained to lift a 500lb barbell with the Wasp sitting on one end of it that one time.

So provide some feats of Thor being more durable than BRB like you claimed instead of talking about Thors low end showings

[Crawfo]

Regarding durability, Thor has actually battled in stars, something I imagine BRB should be able to do but hasn't.

[big_adventure]

You haven't actually listed anything on par for the Bill's durability though. Just a bunch of fights with other characters, including off panel stuff and things which have been specifically ruled as SMvsFL.

No one is bringing up Thor's low end showings but you. We all understand they are irrelevant. What we are saying is that we have durability showings for Bill that don't rely on extrapolation based on the power of other characters. Bill has taken a blast which razed an entire hemisphere and bounced back no problem. (The blast came from Galactus, but that's irrelevant. What is relevant is we explicitly see how powerful the specific blast is on panel, unlike the Celestials hitting Thor.) We also see Bill get drilled to the center of an Earth like planet which then explodes, and look worse for wear but not unconscious.

What did classic Thor do that demonstrated durability on that cosmic scale? I don't want to know who he fought or how powerful they are. I know Thor is faster and has more exotic versatility feats. (Though side note, Bill has done reversed gravity, done teleportation, trapped Heralds in energy vortexes, and through a team effort as neutralized cosmic plagues with cosmic manipulations. He's not bad on that front.) But we weigh things like bullet timing or actually planet busting on panel a lot higher than we rank fighting people who do those things. Otherwise, we wouldn't cite a speed edge for Thor.

Somebody else jumped me to it, but Thor fights in stars more than once - something Bill has never done. And he does all kind of getting clobbered through moons and what have you - the Gor fight for example. Being knocked to the core of a planet and having it go boom is nothing like being just ready and raring to go inside of a star.

Anyway, it's not really worth the argument. I'll waive the claim if you like - it doesn't change the outcome because Thor is (Thors are) MUCH faster.

[big_adventure]

I'll take the first one. Bill isn't shown to be significantly stronger without the hammer but he goes toe to toe with Thor in both their original fights (Thor being deprived of the hammer more or less in both ) and merely outlasts him in the second fight . Thus the intention seems to be clear- BRB is stronger without the hammer

Where has it been noted that the hammer amps Bill's physical stats the "hell up"?

Beyond the fact that it physically buffs Bill massively, and ALL the feats since of Bill transforming to be better in battle, Bill himself notes that it's a massive power-up - it's why he wants to keep the hammer and the power in the first place, forcing the creation of Stormbreaker.

[The Dork Knight]

Beyond the fact that it physically buffs Bill massively, and ALL the feats since of Bill transforming to be better in battle, Bill himself notes that it's a massive power-up - it's why he wants to keep the hammer and the power in the first place, forcing the creation of Stormbreaker.

It's unclear whether it's a physical power up. Added power sure, Mjolnir adds a lot of power and options to a mere class 100. In any case stripped off the enchantments Bill wins

[The Dork Knight]

Bill inside a star in Stormbreaker

https://i.imgur.com/MKblX5F_d.jpg?ma...&fidelity=high

[Captain Morgan]

Interestingly enough, getting Stormbreaker did actually downgrade Bill's base form. Bill was originally a normal Korbonite, which looks nothing like the horse like form we are all familiar with. He was willingly mutated into his cyborg horse face form to defend his people, even though it made him into a freak by their standards.

But when Odin gave him Stormbreaker, he also gave Bill the ability to transform into his original unaltered Korbonite form like Thor could transform into Donald Blake.

http://www.comicsrecommended.com/ima...son-1-form.jpg

So basically Bill had his powerless form and his Thor esque form then. However, he's since essentially died and been revived 2 or 3 times, and I believe in at least one of those the Silver Surfer restored his base form to the cyborg horse faced bruiser. He then got Stormbreaker back on top of that.

So there's a case to be made that he's actually Thor+ at this point, which would jive with his feats. Not so much by his presentation though. I can't recall anyone ever calling Bill stronger or weaker than Thor, but Bill doesn't have the jobber aura Thor does so he comes off looking worse when he fights Surfer for example. Basically, Bill is the Kyle Rayner to Thor's Hal Jordan. The newer wielder has better feats, but the classic wielder gets more editorial props and winds up looking better sometimes. How we treat that from a rumbles perspective is an interesting conundrum.

Bill's current base form hasn't been super consistently portrayed though. In Stormbreaker, when he was killed and revived, he got this random human form that no one ever referenced again AFAIK. In Secret Invasion he turned back into his original Korbonite form until he got his hammer back for some reason. But in his latest series, God Hunter, he spends much of the series sans hammer as he is morally compromised, and he stays in his cyborg battle form the whole time.

Another fun Godhunter fact. He also pulled out a suicide mode he could use by shutting down internal safety mechanisms. It kills him afterwards if he uses it, but it puts him up to a level above even Silver Surfer for raw power. I'm not sure if we treat it as a one off showing for rumbles, or how we would even consider a victory that kills him afterwards.

[Crawfo]

Bill inside a star in Stormbreaker

https://i.imgur.com/MKblX5F_d.jpg?ma...&fidelity=high

Is he really in the star? I mean he is drifting towards it, but with the planetary debris in the fore and background... it doesn't seem like he has broken the surface.

Edit: What's going on with the ">insert adjective< member"?

[Captain Morgan]

Is he really in the star? I mean he is drifting towards it, but with the planetary debris in the fore and background... it doesn't seem like he has broken the surface.

Edit: What's going on with the ">insert adjective< member"?

The last panel definitely makes it seem like he's flying out of the star though.

[Crawfo]

The last panel definitely makes it seem like he's flying out of the star though.

It does, but it also looks like BRB has flown through, and exploded, some of the scattered debris. As a feat it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

[Captain Morgan]

It does, but it also looks like BRB has flown through, and exploded, some of the scattered debris. As a feat it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Eh, I think it's ambiguous enough, but you raise fair point. I will say that I didn't think we ever actually ranked sun diving above planet busting here.

Also, this pretty weird for me because for years I was the one correcting Pike and Lochdale when they would overstate feats from this series. Oh how the tables have turned.

[big_adventure]

Eh, I think it's ambiguous enough, but you raise fair point. I will say that I didn't think we ever actually ranked sun diving above planet busting here.

Also, this pretty weird for me because for years I was the one correcting Pike and Lochdale when they would overstate feats from this series. Oh how the tables have turned.

Nope, nope, nope, couldn't have been years: this place has only existed since 2014. Right? RIGHT????

[Captain Morgan]

Nope, nope, nope, couldn't have been years: this place has only existed since 2014. Right? RIGHT????

Pffft, if only.