Red Skull VS General Erich Ludendorff

[The Dork Knight]

As far as her speed goes the last blitz is still pretty crazy. That's drifting into "Cassandra Cain makes people look like statues" territory (but more people) . That's not "low end bullet timing"

[The Dork Knight]

For that last part: ;-)

For the first part, I don't think we can call her performance in that fight enough to grant her Clark-level strength. We will certainly see when JL comes out.

Fair enough I guess but it's one of two appearances with an increasing power curve indicated in the prequel one. Unless JL drastically contradicts it, personally I think it's enough

People seem to grant Vision Thor level stats on precious little for instance

[wjowski]

Basically, people were just desperate for a DC movie that didn't suck and didn't depress them throughout. And it delivered. It was pretty interesting, only a little heavy-handed, was funny at times (though 20 minutes of ridiculously clumsy sex jokes between two leads with zero on-screen chemistry led to my son asking me what was going on more than once). And it was pretty faithful to the source character. I enjoyed the movie much more than BvS and MoS - no question. DC evidently remembered that superhero films are supposed to be at least a little fun, and allowed jokes for the first time in forever. Yay.

Okay. What does any of that have to with how Ludendorf would perform against Red Skull in a theoretical fight?

As for bullet-timing she was pretty easily deflecting everything from point-blank pistol shots to machine-gun fire with her bracelets soooo...

[big_adventure]

Okay. What does any of that have to with how Ludendorf would perform against Red Skull in a theoretical fight?

As for bullet-timing she was pretty easily deflecting everything from point-blank pistol shots to machine-gun fire with her bracelets soooo...

Actually, not really. For machine gun fire, she mostly used the shield, and got pinned down completely while doing it. And these were machine gunners who never learned the amazing "aim for the completely exposed legs on this stationary target" technique. Basically the same people who shoot at Captain America.

[big_adventure]

As far as her speed goes the last blitz is still pretty crazy. That's drifting into "Cassandra Cain makes people look like statues" territory (but more people) . That's not "low end bullet timing"

Actually, watch it again and it's REALLY not. It goes fast forward - but EVERYONE is moving, just her more - then slow mo, where again, she's moving faster, but like double their speeds. The featless, narrativeless mook soldiers ARE ACTUALLY MOVING while she is. Yes, she's definitely faster, but they are clearly processing her moving, as they are trying to move and attack her. That's ridiculously short of Cass, who clears a room before anyone realizes she's there.

[Nik Hasta]

I am completely cool if she's boosted to "tanks nukes" durability, but that can't be handwaved.

I mean, we do have her standing around in Doomsday's city block destroying quickening with no actual damage during BvS.

People keep forgetting that this is totally a thing that happened.

Wondy is mad durable. if anything she ate punches from Doomsday better than Clark did.

[big_adventure]

I mean, we do have her standing around in Doomsday's city block destroying quickening with no actual damage during BvS.

People keep forgetting that this is totally a thing that happened.

Wondy is mad durable. if anything she ate punches from Doomsday better than Clark did.

I agree with her being STUPID durable.

By feats, she could be around Clark's level for durability, except for her classic "very small pokey things" weakness.

To be fair with the thing you mention above, "city block wrecking" isn't really all THAT insane when she's just in the radius of it and not the target, and wasn't she using her bracers orshield or powers or something to shield herself during that? I don't seem to remember that being a strict no-sell. I am open to being proven idiotic in that statement, however.

My issue is with people protraying her speed as high-end BT, when it just... isn't. Low end BT? Sure, no worries. But high-end is just way past what we've seen from her. High-enders do not hide behind shields when 2 machine guns are trained on them - they dance through that shit like it's nothing while closing with and pimp-slapping their adversaries. And Wondy does not do this.

[Nik Hasta]

I agree with her being STUPID durable.

By feats, she could be around Clark's level for durability, except for her classic "very small pokey things" weakness.

To be fair with the thing you mention above, "city block wrecking" isn't really all THAT insane when she's just in the radius of it and not the target, and wasn't she using her bracers orshield or powers or something to shield herself during that? I don't seem to remember that being a strict no-sell. I am open to being proven idiotic in that statement, however.

She's holding her shield up, but it's only a small thing and she and Clark are being buffeted by the shockwave which is throwing cars/trains/chunks of building around and we see the bolts of lightning off it just ripping through buildings no problem.

There's a shot... hold on I might be able to grab it.

...

Going to be easiest to gif it...



Yeah, Supes and Wondy just standing around in that amount of explosion and enemy is straight up ridiculous in terms of durability.

My issue is with people protraying her speed as high-end BT, when it just... isn't. Low end BT? Sure, no worries. But high-end is just way past what we've seen from her. High-enders do not hide behind shields when 2 machine guns are trained on them - they dance through that shit like it's nothing while closing with and pimp-slapping their adversaries. And Wondy does not do this.

I only saw the film once myself, but I'm happy with her being a mid-level BT to be honest. The film presented her as her powers consistently getting stronger and she had pretty neat instant dash feat when fighting Ares when her powers were at their height. Even prior to that she parries bullets in flight after they have been fired which is no mean feat.

She's no Cassandra Cain but she's easily got some of the better movement and reaction feats for a superhero property character outside of the Quicksilvers.

[byc]

Superman is probably still more durable. He got nuked and was KOed, and then the sun made him better in a few moments.

[Captain Morgan]

Regardless of where Diana gets pegged, she's obviously stronger, faster, and more durable than Cap. And I would argue more skilled, at least compared to First Avenger's less experienced Cap. Skull dented some metal and had a two minute fight with Cap. Ludendorff fought someone waaaaay above that paygrade. He ultimately got his ass kicked, but he hung in there better than Skull would have.

[wjowski]

Actually, not really. For machine gun fire, she mostly used the shield, and got pinned down completely while doing it. And these were machine gunners who never learned the amazing "aim for the completely exposed legs on this stationary target" technique. Basically the same people who shoot at Captain America.

Even discounting that, she's still got feats for doing things like being fast enough to reach around Steve Trevor to block a gunshot aimed at him and skill-shotting deflected bullets back at the people who fired them. That's quite a step above 'low level' bullet timing. Low level bullet timing'd be somewhere on the level of Ozymandias from Watchmen.

[MorphyVSFischer]

How the Hell is blocking a shot from behind after its fired from like four or five feat away not at least mid level bullet timing

[big_adventure]

How the Hell is blocking a shot from behind after its fired from like four or five feat away not at least mid level bullet timing

Try making it several shots, while engaged in combat with other people at the same time.

To me, mid-level BT is Daredevil, and he SWINGS a tiny club barely wider than a bullet, and uses that swing to redirect two bullets PERFECTLY into two different foes, said bullets fired by two different guns at two different angles from a range of less than a meter. While engaged in combat with other people at the same time. High-end is Danny Rand, Cass or Spider-Man: dancing gracefully through multi-angle close-range automatic weapons fire and KOing people with attacks while doing this. WW doesn't approach this level. When a couple of machine guns are trained on her, she's stuck pinned down behind her shield until Steve's team charges. Diana's best "blitz" is simply NOTHING compared to even Matt: he's 200 yards away, at ground level, from a dude sighting him through a scope on a rifle. Dude preps to fire, suddenly Matt isn't there. Dude lowers the rifle, Matt is jumping over the top of the roof into an attack.

Diana's blitz, to be honest, isn't any more impressive as stuff Batman and especially Shiva have done. Shiva notably has stuff like knocking something in the air, KOing multiple people around a room before they know she's moved, and catching the object at about the same height. Shiva isn't even a LOW END BT. Batman isn't even a ringer, but he has taken things off a table in front of someone while they are looking at him and the don't see the move at all. During WW's best blitz, people were REACTING to her. Normal, mooky, featless people. Her bracelet blocks are the best feats she has - and they are good! They just aren't even mid-tier BT to me (see Matt's casual deflection feat above), and NOTHING like what Danny, Cass, Shang or Peter pull off. Hell, 616 Captain America has sprinted through parks so fast that the only evidence of his passing is hair being tousled. Dude has run a mile in less than a minute, which is covering just a bit shy of 100 feet in one second while running a mile. Diana hasn't shown to be substantively faster than that.

[Nik Hasta]

Mid tier

Daredevil

Lolwut?

[big_adventure]

Mid tier

Daredevil

Lolwut?

Yup, absolutely. DD is mid-tier BT. He's a solid step below Danny or Shang or Peter, and he's a step above...well...movie Diana ?