Barbara Gordon's future in the DC Universe (aka: is it time for a change?)

[Godlike13]

Do people really hate hipsters though?

[millernumber1]

Do people really hate hipsters though?

I'm not fond of them. And I think they've lost a lot of the power they had over the culture two to seven years ago. They've been assimilated, so anyone really pushing the hipster brand is seen as not with the times.

But then, I was never a hipster, so maybe I'm dead wrong.

[Frontier]

Do people really hate hipsters though?

Whatever my opinion of them, I certainly don't think of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl as one.

[TheSeaDragon]

She didn't carry a solo, but she was one of two or three main characters in a very long running small team book, and a huge presence all over the DCU. That's not a supporting character.

You don't have to cripple her again - you can just say that the chip doesn't work on a long term basis, or can't work 24/7.
.

Summary, you want to cripple her again


I loveSteph, but i dont know why people want her and Cass to have a worrobed mantle instead of their own identity. I know, the batgirl name has more recognition, but if steph and cass can made a name on their own for themselves, it would be better for them.

[Alycat]

Do people really hate hipsters though?

I've never met someone who liked them. Not even in San Francisco. Not even people who look like Hipsters seem to like self-proclaimed hipsters. But seriously, I sorta get why they want Babs to cater to that specific type I suppose, but they are doing it so poorly.

[Assam]

Summary, you want to cripple her again

I loveSteph, but i dont know why people want her and Cass to have a worrobed mantle instead of their own identity. I know, the batgirl name has more recognition, but if steph and cass can made a name on their own for themselves, it would be better for them.

Nah, we don't want her re-crippled. Much like how I don't like how Barry Allen came back to life, but acknowledge that killing him again would just make things worse, Babs can't be re-crippled. I actually really like the idea that she becomes Oracle again because the chip only works sporadically and she can't take the chance of being Batgirl.

You do realize that's like asking, "Why would anyone want Dick to have ever been Robin? He's Nightwing now and that should be his legacy." We want it because its a part of their history. I don't need Cass or Steph to be Batgirl again. The former is fine as Spoiler (Though I'd prefer if she could get a real shot at being Robin), and the latter just needs a better name than Orphan. Basically, I want Babs as Oracle through the means described, Cass and Steph to have their time as Batgirl restored, and for the current Batgirl, either have a Team Batgirl form with those who have held the mantle, or have a new character take it up.

[millernumber1]

Summary, you want to cripple her again


I loveSteph, but i dont know why people want her and Cass to have a worrobed mantle instead of their own identity. I know, the batgirl name has more recognition, but if steph and cass can made a name on their own for themselves, it would be better for them.

Your phrasing, to me, implies that 1) I hate Babs, and 2) I actively want to re-injure her. What I propose, instead, is an attempt to give her disability weight, instead of magically waving it away. She's still disabled as long as Killing Joke and the chip are part of her backstory, and I'd really rather the writing deal with that fact than pretend it makes no difference to the character.

As for Steph and Cass - 1) they didn't borrow the mantle, because at the time, there was no narrative path to Babara taking back the mantle (futhermore, Babs was at the least in her late 20s, if not early 30, which to me implies that even if her legs were restored, she wouldn't have been Bat-GIRL again), and the previous holder of the mantle freely gave it to them (in Steph's case, both holders); 2) as a parallel to what Assam says, Cass and Steph earned their spot. They didn't borrow it, they didn't copy it from Babs - they made it their own. To have that time taken away irks fans who loved those stories and Cass and Steph's place in them.

[RedQueen]

With the melting pot of indie and mainstream culture I have no idea what is a hipster nowadays, I think it's just been absorbed into everyday trends now. Though man bun is still used to describe it but I don't know any identifiers. But I think it's also used more often by older generations to take a swipe at millennials.

Whatever my opinion of them, I certainly don't think of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl as one.

Yeah neither do I.

[TheSeaDragon]

Your phrasing, to me, implies that 1) I hate Babs, and 2) I actively want to re-injure her. What I propose, instead, is an attempt to give her disability weight, instead of magically waving it away. She's still disabled as long as Killing Joke and the chip are part of her backstory, and I'd really rather the writing deal with that fact than pretend it makes no difference to the character.

As for Steph and Cass - 1) they didn't borrow the mantle, because at the time, there was no narrative path to Babara taking back the mantle (futhermore, Babs was at the least in her late 20s, if not early 30, which to me implies that even if her legs were restored, she wouldn't have been Bat-GIRL again), and the previous holder of the mantle freely gave it to them (in Steph's case, both holders); 2) as a parallel to what Assam says, Cass and Steph earned their spot. They didn't borrow it, they didn't copy it from Babs - they made it their own. To have that time taken away irks fans who loved those stories and Cass and Steph's place in them.

Is an universe where people came back form the dead every time , and where the RObin that was killed by phone calls , came back because thet wanted to thell more stories wit him. So, i dont see anything wrnog with babs walking again. I respect that you guys are not big on Babs, but i like her . And maybe im not that far of you guys. My ideal scenario would be a more mature Babs, both mentally and physically , mentoring the other girls , and i don t think she needs a wheelchair for it , hope you guys at least will be ok with it .
And for the record i like every single bat family character besides Snyder creations , and i guess i dont care so much for Kate indeed, and i think her being the older bat familiy woman is kinda hurtin babs, for start she cant use the name batwoman, but i cant deny Kate earned her place at this point.

[Badou]

Barbara is a 21-22 year old living in the "tech center" part of a big city. They tend to be very hipster. Not that I want her to be a hipster, but given her age and where she lives it is an appropriate description.

Anything that moves Barbara away from the Batgirl identity is going to be a downgrade. Oracle was a fine identity for what Barbara was pre-New 52, but lets not pretend that it was near the level of Batgirl in terms of brand importance. There was a long stretch where the Oracle identity stagnated and sort of ran its course. I'm fine with trying to write her as being a bit more mature, but the idea that shifting any focus away from her onto Cass or Steph is going to help Babs isn't going to work.

[TheSeaDragon]

Barbara is a 21-22 year old living in the "tech center" part of a big city. They tend to be very hipster. Not that I want her to be a hipster, but given her age and where she lives it is an appropriate description.

Anything that moves Barbara away from the Batgirl identity is going to be a downgrade. Oracle was a fine identity for what Barbara was pre-New 52, but lets not pretend that it was near the level of Batgirl in terms of brand importance. There was a long stretch where the Oracle identity stagnated and sort of ran its course. I'm fine with trying to write her as being a bit more mature, but the idea that shifting any focus away from her onto Cass or Steph is going to help Babs isn't going to work.

Agree with you about Oracle gettin stale. But dont get me wrong when i said she could be portrayed as more mature and a mentor figure to Steph or Cass. She would interact more with them in this scenario but she still would be the main focus of her book. Of course , some fans will still not be happy but this is kindal ike the Flash or GL situation

[millernumber1]

Is an universe where people came back form the dead every time , and where the RObin that was killed by phone calls , came back because thet wanted to thell more stories wit him. So, i dont see anything wrnog with babs walking again. I respect that you guys are not big on Babs, but i like her . And maybe im not that far of you guys. My ideal scenario would be a more mature Babs, both mentally and physically , mentoring the other girls , and i don t think she needs a wheelchair for it , hope you guys at least will be ok with it .
And for the record i like every single bat family character besides Snyder creations , and i guess i dont care so much for Kate indeed, and i think her being the older bat familiy woman is kinda hurtin babs, for start she cant use the name batwoman, but i cant deny Kate earned her place at this point.

Most people who come back from the dead, and especially Jason, have their entire motivation and story direction changed by that death. So your argument doesn't make sense there.

Also, please note that I didn't say Babs had to completely lose the ability to walk - just have it be more fragile and less magical.

I said, explicitly, that I am not about hating on Babs. I loved Birds of Prey before I loved Steph and Cass (because Steph was mostly dead when I started reading comics seriously, and Cass has been a tricky nut for me to crack). I think Babs in Batgirl Year One is amazing, and Babs as Oracle is one of my favorite characters (I have a Heroclix of Oracle in front of me as we speak, in the number two slot next to Steph as Batgirl). I don't want to cripple her - Alan Moore and his editors did that. I want her story to mean something, and the more retcons you add to a story that remove consequences - that make storytelling easier - the less important her story is. Lazy, easy stories aren't remembered. Hard ones are - and Babs actually struggling to be Batgirl again, having to use her skills as Oracle and a mentor instead of just blythely punching and swinging like any teen vigilante - that's the character I would be interested in reading.

Barbara is a 21-22 year old living in the "tech center" part of a big city. They tend to be very hipster. Not that I want her to be a hipster, but given her age and where she lives it is an appropriate description.

Anything that moves Barbara away from the Batgirl identity is going to be a downgrade. Oracle was a fine identity for what Barbara was pre-New 52, but lets not pretend that it was near the level of Batgirl in terms of brand importance. There was a long stretch where the Oracle identity stagnated and sort of ran its course. I'm fine with trying to write her as being a bit more mature, but the idea that shifting any focus away from her onto Cass or Steph is going to help Babs isn't going to work.

Oracle is not a downgrade. She was the glue, the spine of the Batfamily. Only when you have bad writers and editors who don't understand why she's so important does Oracle seem like a downgrade.

And if you think Oracle stagnated, you didn't really pay attention to Birds of Prey or Black Mirror, two excellent examples of how Oracle can be used to incredibly dynamic effect.

[Godlike13]

Oracle becomes a downgrade when they position it under Batgirl. And if you think Oracle didn't stagnant then you didn't really pay attention to Birds of Prey or Black Mirror. All her peers were seeing major moves and changes during that time except for her. Instead she got to play support to the new Batgirl till they could cobble together a ragtag BoP, that couldn't find an artist, where they actually had her cut herself off from the greater superhero community.

[Jcogginsa]

I definitely don't think Barbara Gordon should be Batgirl. If they can't make her Oracle, at least let her be Batwoman instead.

[RedQueen]

Yeah I kinda agree. I see a lot with Barbara as Oracle that people want her in a mentor or mother role or play tech support. It's more about Oracle and less about Barbara as a character. I adore Oracle but in those last few years she was supporting character to a lot of people. The trouble is that being a hacker in the 90s was a good thing and had a cool genre attached to it, in the 2010s everyone can do it. Babs is advertised as the smartest of the batkids but Tim displays it more and is pretty much now the go to tech dude. Jason has shown some skill. Stephanie was doing it a few issues ago. So you gotta smart Babs up or dumb everyone down.

I do believe they could have done something that kept her disabled and she could have gotten more creative with her tech rather than the usual hacking stuff but DC never allowed her to reach the heights of intelligence like others, like Ray Palmer or Ted Kord. She was always just a hacker but I would've like to see that progress to something more. Barbara is meant to be very intelligent but it kind of annoyed me that it wasn't allowed to extend further into the realm of tech. Could have gotten a bit more sci-fi-y like the stuff with brainiac idk.

It's why I get really ticked off when Barbara gets dumbed down for story purposes. They haven't now or in the past really committed to the true extent of her intelligence.

But I like some of the psyche stuff Gail Simone did with her on her Batgirl run. I thought it was good seeing some of that side of Babs being explored.