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  1. #151
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    If they can't make her Oracle, at least let her be Batwoman instead.
    No. That has its own set of problems.
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  2. #152
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    DC making Babs in to Batwoman is a demotion. Batgirl is way more popular and iconic than Batwoman. You don't see Joss Whedon asking to make a Batwoman film. DC also won't make Babs in to pre-New52 Oracle anytime soon. It's the belief of DC editorial that Babs is THE Batgirl. A lot of people may disagree, but it won't change anytime soon. If the Batgirl movie gets made, I can see Babs being Batgirl a decade or more so.

    DC is streamlining the Bat family to make it easily understandable to the general crowd. They removed 2 Batgirls and 1 Robin to make everything simpler. It goes pretty much like this "The 1st Robin grew up, the 2nd Robin was killed by the Joker, and the 3rd Robin is Batman's son. The Batgirl is Commissioner Gordon's daughter.", which helps if you are including the Bat family in the DCEU. It removes the job of explaining decades of history which won't fit in a film without turning it into a history lesson.

    Of course, I am against this. I don't want to see decades of history and legacy destroyed. The same reason I hate the New52 with great passion.

    I also believe Dick is an outlier in DC and comics in general. Wally was too until the New 52. You don't see a kid or teenage heroes grow up. It's against the status quo.

  3. #153
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    I also want to point out sales wise the Batfamily is a lot weaker in Rebirth than in the New52. Batgirl and Nightwing were beating or equaling Superman, Wonder Woman and the Flash during the New52. Rebirth Nightwing, even though it still beats Aquaman and Green Lantern, is not as strong in sales number as New52 Nightwing. The double shipping is really hurting it in the long run with the double decline every month (You can also see the effect less in 'Tec). While RHatO, Batgirl and Batwoman are way below compared to their New52 counterparts. It might be because of no crossover events or the Batfamily was hot during the New52.

    New52 Batgirl (and the bat family) was carried by crossovers. It sold more than New52 Nightwing in the first couple of issues and the Death of the Family crossover issues. After those it quickly fell below Nightwing, showing a problem keeping people on reading Batgirl. (In Dick Grayson's defense, people hated the idea of Dick being demoted to Nightwing after a great Batman run. Even King and Seeley's Grayson early issues sold more, which only shows how much people hated the New52 demotion. It was also the first time Babs was out of a wheelchair in decades, which made it a landmark moment for collectors.)

    Rebirth is the rise of Superman, the Flash and Wonder Woman. The consistent quality and sales of these three shows how strong Rebirth is line-wide.
    Last edited by yohyoi; 06-29-2017 at 01:59 AM.

  4. #154
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    Thats because the Bat family didn't get a Rebirth. Instead we get inferior Tynion created history because he had Snyder's blessing.
    They need to purify Dick's origin by removing the Court non sense. Cass,Tim,Steph outright need to dump their current history.
    The irony is that the current Red Hood is doing a lot more in that regard than the other Bat books.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Thats because the Bat family didn't get a Rebirth. Instead we get inferior Tynion created history because he had Snyder's blessing.
    They need to purify Dick's origin by removing the Court non sense. Cass,Tim,Steph outright need to dump their current history.
    The irony is that the current Red Hood is doing a lot more in that regard than the other Bat books.
    I think it's more because of people's budget, double shipping and Bat family crossovers reduced a lot. Why buy RHatO, Batgirl or Batwoman for $4, when you can get two issues of Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. for 6$.

    Even RHatO should be in the 35k-45k right now and near the top 50. It is way below those numbers. It's less than 2k away from Batgirl. Which shows how far Batgirl has fallen and how unsafe RHatO is too.

  6. #156
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Oracle becomes a downgrade when they position it under Batgirl. And if you think Oracle didn't stagnant then you didn't really pay attention to Birds of Prey or Black Mirror. All her peers were seeing major moves and changes during that time except for her. Instead she got to play support to the new Batgirl till they could cobble together a ragtag BoP, that couldn't find an artist, where they actually had her cut herself off from the greater superhero community.
    Um. You say that she didn't have major changes, and then say that she cut herself off from the community (in Death of Oracle). That is a contradiction. You may think (I do myself) that Death of Oracle was a bad change, but it was definitely a change. Additionally, her role in Batgirl was also a major change - instead of being the mastermind of a field team, she was a one-on-one mentor to a protege - yes, she'd had a role like that before with Cass, but that was split unequally with Batman himself - Babs was completely solo in her mentorship of Steph, and I think that is an important growth of her character and responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedQueen View Post
    Yeah I kinda agree. I see a lot with Barbara as Oracle that people want her in a mentor or mother role or play tech support. It's more about Oracle and less about Barbara as a character. I adore Oracle but in those last few years she was supporting character to a lot of people. The trouble is that being a hacker in the 90s was a good thing and had a cool genre attached to it, in the 2010s everyone can do it. Babs is advertised as the smartest of the batkids but Tim displays it more and is pretty much now the go to tech dude. Jason has shown some skill. Stephanie was doing it a few issues ago. So you gotta smart Babs up or dumb everyone down.

    I do believe they could have done something that kept her disabled and she could have gotten more creative with her tech rather than the usual hacking stuff but DC never allowed her to reach the heights of intelligence like others, like Ray Palmer or Ted Kord. She was always just a hacker but I would've like to see that progress to something more. Barbara is meant to be very intelligent but it kind of annoyed me that it wasn't allowed to extend further into the realm of tech. Could have gotten a bit more sci-fi-y like the stuff with brainiac idk.

    It's why I get really ticked off when Barbara gets dumbed down for story purposes. They haven't now or in the past really committed to the true extent of her intelligence.

    But I like some of the psyche stuff Gail Simone did with her on her Batgirl run. I thought it was good seeing some of that side of Babs being explored.
    Interestingly, you mention that she was spread too thin, which was the reason Gail Simone did Death of Oracle. So even though I don't really agree that she was spread to thin, I can see that perspective, and understand why Simone did that storyline, much as I hated it.

    But I would say this: Babs was a supporting character to a lot of people, but she was one of three main characters in Birds of Prey, and even though I don't like Simone's second run that much, she was still a dynamic character with her own goals and directions in that title. And she was one of the main characters in Black Mirror and Batgirl at the time.

    I do completely agree with your general point that Babs has been acting really dumb since the n52 started. And I think that making Babs move in the direction of transhumanism, as Morrison sort of did with the Internet 2.0 (which was dumb, but I like the direction), or as you say with Brainiac, or even what Burnside did with DigiBabs, would be a cool thing to do that would make her more than a hacker.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Um. You say that she didn't have major changes, and then say that she cut herself off from the community (in Death of Oracle). That is a contradiction. You may think (I do myself) that Death of Oracle was a bad change, but it was definitely a change. Additionally, her role in Batgirl was also a major change - instead of being the mastermind of a field team, she was a one-on-one mentor to a protege - yes, she'd had a role like that before with Cass, but that was split unequally with Batman himself - Babs was completely solo in her mentorship of Steph, and I think that is an important growth of her character and responsibility.
    She was already cut off from the community due to no one actually doing anything with her, Death of Oracle just tried to put an in story explanation to it. And her role in Batgirl wasn't a major change. We seen her support Cass when she was Batgirl too. Batgirl support is not some important growth of her character or responsibility. Batman Reborn was a rough time for Babs. Like i said before every body was moving on up and forward except for Oracle. The all important Oracle was positioned under the new Batgirl and made Bagirl support, till they could give her back a poorly cobbled together BoP. Very frustrating compared to what they were doing with everyone around her.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-29-2017 at 07:10 AM.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    She was already cut off from the community due to no one actually doing anything with her, Death of Oracle just tried to put an in story explanation to it. And her role in Batgirl wasn't a major change. We seen her support Cass when she was Batgirl too. Batgirl support is not some important growth of her character or responsibility. Batman Reborn was a rough time for Babs. Like i said before every body was moving on up and forward except for Oracle. The all important Oracle was positioned under the new Batgirl and made Bagirl support, till they could give her back a poorly cobbled together BoP. Very frustrating compared to what they were doing with everyone around her.
    I think a big problem of her going back to Oracle would also be that Birds of Prey hasn't been sucessfull in a long time, soas Orcale she might now be in a worse position than as Batgirl.

  9. #159
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    She just needs a new writing and art team. Babs does not have to quit being Batgirl. Simone could write her again. Although her Batgirl run is not in my recommendation list. I rank it with Higgin's Nightwing run; enjoyable but not great. It would sell well like how Wonder Woman is selling due to Rucka, and Harley is selling due to Palmiotti and Conner. Well not as much due to the Bat family selling less in Rebirth, but it can probably double ship as long as Green Arrow.

  10. #160
    Mighty Member KoriandrJean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Ways I'd fix Barbara Gordon while still keeping her Batgirl:

    - Age her up to late 20's. (I'd personally want even older, but whatever)

    - Have her act like the mature adult we know and love.

    - Give her the skills and abilities she had as Oracle.

    - Re-establish more of her ties to the DCU, as well as within the BatFamily. Ex. Ted Kord and the Justice League for the DCU, and Cass, Steph, and JPV for the Batfamily.

    and most importantly for me:

    - WIPE THE KILLING JOKE FROM CANON.

    While there are several reasons I have not bought a single Batgirl comic since the Nu52 started, chief among them is that I found the choice to have Babs become Batgirl again disgusting. Not because of the inherent idea though. If she'd just been starting out as Batgirl, or had had the role for a few years, fine. I wouldn't like it, but fine. The decision to have the events of Killing Joke still in play though, and having her 'recover' from the incident by becoming Batgirl, even though she'd already 'recovered' and become stronger while Oracle was strikingly ablest, and not something I could forgive.

    I know DC won't do this last one, or most of these probably, but it's what it would take for me at least to vote with my wallet in favor of Babsgirl.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by yohyoi View Post
    DC making Babs in to Batwoman is a demotion. Batgirl is way more popular and iconic than Batwoman.
    I think they could have pulled this of roughly 10 years ago. But now with Kate being DC biggerst LGBT charcter, replacing her by Barbara would get them lots of negative poublicity.

  12. #162
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    She was already cut off from the community due to no one actually doing anything with her, Death of Oracle just tried to put an in story explanation to it. And her role in Batgirl wasn't a major change. We seen her support Cass when she was Batgirl too. Batgirl support is not some important growth of her character or responsibility. Batman Reborn was a rough time for Babs. Like i said before every body was moving on up and forward except for Oracle. The all important Oracle was positioned under the new Batgirl and made Bagirl support, till they could give her back a poorly cobbled together BoP. Very frustrating compared to what they were doing with everyone around her.
    I would have to do some checking, but it was not my impression that "no one actually" did anything with her from 2008-2011. Rucka used her in The Question, Pipeline, and she was a big part of Battle for the Cowl, and Morrison included her in Batman Inc.

    Please pay attention to what I actually said. I acknowledged her mentorship of Cass, but drew an important distinction. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't ignore the things I wrote in direct response to you.

    I tend to agree that Simone's second run on Birds of Prey was a mess, but from a big picture perspective, they were giving Babs to an A-list writer with a series spinning out of a major event. Simone clearly had plans for a big narrative with Babs near the end of the run, with Junior, so I think it's not true that nothing was happening for her - even if the things that were happening weren't particularly well executed or successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I think a big problem of her going back to Oracle would also be that Birds of Prey hasn't been sucessfull in a long time, soas Orcale she might now be in a worse position than as Batgirl.
    I think you're definitely right in terms of sales and profile. But I think if you got an A-List team with an actually good story to tell, or found a new creative team that really made a buzz (I really like the Bensons and what they're doing, but they're not creating buzz, sadly), the Birds could be a significant boost to all three of its central characters. But as it stands now? Yes, I tend to agree.

    That being said, I do not at all reverse my desire for Steph and Cass to be Batgirl again, and Babs to be Oracle. I just don't have an expectation that it's going to happen right now, given the economic realities of the characters in their current states.
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  13. #163
    Incredible Member RedQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I think they could have pulled this of roughly 10 years ago. But now with Kate being DC biggerst LGBT charcter, replacing her by Barbara would get them lots of negative poublicity.
    Agreed. Batwoman is now associated as being a gay icon in comics so taking it away is a big no.


    Batwoman's design was based off the the Batwoman design they were nearly gonna give Babs like over 10 years ago which I find interesting. They could have made it happen over 10 years ago but now it would be inappropriate considering Kate's meaningful presence in comics.

  14. #164
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    Isn't Barbara heavily implied to be Bi in the Birds of Prey series? Just make that canon so there's still an LGBT Batwoman.

    Regardless, she outgrew batgirl a long time ago. Putting her back in that role was a demotion.

  15. #165
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    She is not. Certainly not heavily.

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