How Much Are We (The Fans) To Blame For Marvel's Current State?

[MarvelMaster616]

I think this is a question that needs to be asked. We've seen a lot of complaining and debates within these threads. I freely admit I've done more than my share of both. There's all this talk about how much people hate Hydra Cap, how much they want a worthy Thor back, how much they hate some of the replacement characters, how much they had the hero-versus-hero clashes, how much they hate relaunches, etc. I don't want this to be another thread about the state of Marvel's sales figures. That's an issue nobody outside the industry is qualified to discuss. But the more I see these issues pop up, the more I wonder whether this is a classic, "It's not you, it's me" type scenario.

Let's not lie to ourselves. We fans made a LOT of demands on Marvel. We expect them to provide us with fun, interesting stories about the characters we love. But we only want that so long as the characters we love don't change too much and remain exactly as we want them to for now and until the end of time. If they do something novel and fresh, we'll whine about how we want the classics. If they give us the classics, we'll whine about how boring and bland it is. There's literally no way Marvel can win there. They want to excite their customers, but we keep rolling our eyes because they aren't giving us exactly what we want all the time, every time, and without any significant cost. That's like getting mad at the sky for being blue.

So let's ask the hard question here. Are we to blame? Are we the reason Marvel's current comic line is in the state it's in?

[The BaRoN]

Hardly at all.

It's down to the MCU and the higher profile Marvel has now.

being featured on the View and EW has made them hungry to be in the public eye all the time.

The obsession with new readers and forgetting the people that actually made them who they are today and stuck with them for decades also played a part.

Relaunches and terrible terrible events play a major part too.

DC did it best when they messed up with Nu52 and then listened to the actually people who buy their books and Rebirth has been fantastic.

Throwing to the side Cap, ironman, Thor, Spiderman, FF, Xmen etc has been their biggest mistake, I get the need for diversity but never at the expense of established much loved and followed characters.

Thor jane, miles and Ms Marvel have just about worked, Miss America, Ironheart, Cho Hulk, Falcon cap, Moon girl etc have been a mess.

They had diverse characters that had history and they threw them away to use well know names to push some random Bendis obsession. I get we need new characters but the way they were shoved down our throats didn't make them appeal to many.

they alienated the fans and laughed at them, called them racist or sexist and expected new fans to cover the cost.

arrogance, plain and simple.

I won't even mention the disgraceful treatment of the FF and Xmen which is only now being fixed due to low sales and no one caring about Inhumans.

[Ianbarreilles]

I do think they do share some of the blame but I'm not sure exactly what they are to blame for but I do think some of the the fanbase the readership definitely is to blame but not entirely.

[Exciter]

It's true that some fans will never be happy. That's a fact of life. But as I've seen it, DC's Rebirth has been the right combination of classic and new. Marvel is missing that mark by a lot.

The House of Ideas is also is lacking writer talent right now. The really great authors of the recent past have gone to greener pastures. Marvel's recent trend is to grab people with little to no comic experience, but it shouldn't be surprising when those books aren't good.

[MarvelMaster616]

I do think they do share some of the blame but I'm not sure exactly what they are to blame for but I do think some of the the fanbase the readership definitely is to blame but not entirely.

I'm not saying Marvel is completely blameless. The comics industry is a two-way street. Marvel and the fans need each other in order for both to benefit. It's just how business works.

But I get the sense that fans are too eager to blame Marvel (and I admit I've been guilty of this before) for the current situation more than themselves.

A while back, fans were complaining that Wolverine was in too many comics. Now, he's dead and everyone wants him back. Not long ago, fans complained about the lack of diversity and female-centered books. Marvel tries to change that and suddenly, they're part of some ultra-leftist agenda. There seems to be no winning path for Marvel and I think we're to blame. Let's face it. If they printed a comic that just had Captain America saluting the American flag for 100 pages and we willingly paid $10 for a million copies, that's all Marvel would do. Let's not make light of our own influence on those involved. The way I see some people talk on this board, it's like they think Marvel is going out of their way to upset them, personally.

[DanMad1977]

Hmmm...

I already thought about that.

What do we want? What do I want from Marvel? I was always happy when Marvel changed something. It was exciting. But after awhile the changed it back to the way it was, that was kinda frustrating.
Someone died, it was a shocker, but the character came back. At first it was another shocker, oh my gosh .....(insert character here) is back! After awhile it got old, because everybody returns...

So, now Spider-Man for example climbed the ladder of evolution upwards. He is now a tecnosuperhero with vehicles and so on. Great...not! I always wanted Spider-Man to evolve, but not to far from the source martial. Marvel cant make it right for me.

The only book i read where change lasts for real, is Savage Dragon. Its written in real time and what happens, happens. Seldomly someone is coming back from the dead, characters age, everything evolves. If you have the chance to read SD from the beginning you are up to a wonderful ride.

But with corporate Heroes you just have to know that its all smoke and mirrors, because the characters have to live on, because the bring in the cash

[Prof. Warren]

I think this is a question that needs to be asked. We've seen a lot of complaining and debates within these threads. I freely admit I've done more than my share of both. There's all this talk about how much people hate Hydra Cap, how much they want a worthy Thor back, how much they hate some of the replacement characters, how much they had the hero-versus-hero clashes, how much they hate relaunches, etc. I don't want this to be another thread about the state of Marvel's sales figures. That's an issue nobody outside the industry is qualified to discuss. But the more I see these issues pop up, the more I wonder whether this is a classic, "It's not you, it's me" type scenario.

Let's not lie to ourselves. We fans made a LOT of demands on Marvel. We expect them to provide us with fun, interesting stories about the characters we love. But we only want that so long as the characters we love don't change too much and remain exactly as we want them to for now and until the end of time. If they do something novel and fresh, we'll whine about how we want the classics. If they give us the classics, we'll whine about how boring and bland it is. There's literally no way Marvel can win there. They want to excite their customers, but we keep rolling our eyes because they aren't giving us exactly what we want all the time, every time, and without any significant cost. That's like getting mad at the sky for being blue.

So let's ask the hard question here. Are we to blame? Are we the reason Marvel's current comic line is in the state it's in?

Well, first of all, "the state" Marvel's line is in is that they're the #1 publisher. And despite whatever online crying or doomsaying there is about Marvel's supposed troubles, they have been in that position on a more-than-regular basis. It's not like they have to fight their way back to the top spot. They're already there.

And for all the talk about how great Rebirth is, DC's doing about the same as they were before. Their fans might be a little happier than they were during New52 but that hasn't vaulted them to any new ascendant status. They just stopped pissing off their core audience as much. But if you actually look at the DC message boards, you'll still find all the same kind of bitching about DC as many Marvel fans have towards Marvel. Rebirth has not won over every DC fan by any stretch. There's still plenty of grousing to be found on that side of the fence.

But here's the thing - fans love to complain. And older fans especially feel entitled to things being the way they want them to be. There's a feelings of ownership, of investment and of being owed. If a company tries something new, many fans perceive it as an attack on them or they feel that they're being ignored or cast aside for a new audience.

But if companies never try anything new, the industry will just waste away - too afraid of pissing off an aging readership that fears and resents change to ever evolve the way they need to.

Now, staying true to the past and at the same time forging ahead to the future and attracting new readers is a tricky balancing act. And I do think that Marvel seriously misjudged the reader's appetite for change. When storylines like Jane Foster Thor and Superior Spider-Man became so huge and so embraced, I think Marvel took that as a sign that change across the board would be welcome. But it isn't. Not by everyone, at least.

Fans like change as long as it's off-set by a certain level of stability. If you change too much at once, it stops being intriguing and just becomes - for some - disorientating and alienating. It's one thing to have one or two heroes replaced or not themselves at one time but to have almost all your core heroes altered at once, I think causes a lot of people to just tune out.

I think that's the lesson that Marvel learned from ANAD - that change is good and necessary but too much change at once can turn people off. But that's an easy thing to act on and turn around. We'll see what Legacy holds in that regard.

Hardly at all.

It's down to the MCU and the higher profile Marvel has now.

being featured on the View and EW has made them hungry to be in the public eye all the time.

The obsession with new readers and forgetting the people that actually made them who they are today and stuck with them for decades also played a part.

This will be shocking to some fans but trying to attract new readers is kind of important for publishers if they want to survive. They should be obsessed with new readers. It's not just about seeking attention, it's about trying to make people seek out your product - particularly people who have never done so in the past. Just catering to the core audience is a clear path to obsolescence.

Alienating that older audience isn't good either but I think Marvel has gotten the hint on that count.

[_Feely_]

The obsession with new readers and forgetting the people that actually made them who they are today and stuck with them for decades also played a part.

Relaunches and terrible terrible events play a major part too.

DC did it best when they messed up with Nu52 and then listened to the actually people who buy their books and Rebirth has been fantastic.

Ok, i'll bite.

I find Rebirth to be boring, repetitive, fan-servicing nonsense.


See what happened there?

[Thoth]

I think that Marvel is doing their best in this small, niche market. Trying new things should be encouraged. Although I hate what they have done with Cap, at least they didn't stay in the same mold.

I think what we have seen in a lot of Marvel movies is a movement towards the 21st century and the changes in the way people enjoy comics. 2 hours, good story, good action, good times! Comics are...a leftover from a bygone age. So, it is only natural that they try new things to try to retain their current readership, let alone try and get new readers. It is a dying art. I pray it doesn't disappear completely.

T

[Fokken]

Well said, MarvelMaster616.

Additionally, even for the titles that ARE what readers want/seek/ask-for..... the AUDIENCE isn't always BUYING them.

They aren't shelling out the cashy money.

In an age when modern technology grants society access to FREE (essentially stolen) comics -- pirating, downloading, file sharing, or just plain reading it in the store and putting it back on the shelf-- readership isn't necessarily decreasing in numbers-- but they ARE neglecting to PAY for the product.

That's a problem.
And speaking as a creative minded individual with a penchant for crafting art to express said creative mindedness, its insulting and tacky.
Especially when folks feel so inclined to abuse the same modern technology to pour out their emboldened criticisms of a product they've no grounds to critique when THEY. DIDN'T. PAY. FOR. IT.
Now, I am not arguing against critiquing art (and that's what these are, in my mind. Comic books ARE art) because that is part of the purpose and experience OF art and to eliminate that would defeat the purpose of these beloved message boards in many ways, which I won't support-- but when the success of a book is dependent on monetary statistics as well as public opinion -- and the sales are abysmal and the complaints are uncharacteristically high in comparison -- particularly from those who aren't BUYING the book, well that's just annoying AF.

Kindly sit down, stop reading it entirely, and keep your nonsense opinions to yourself. Stop trying to SINK THE BOAT you don't even want to sail in, in the first place.

[Anduinel]

Eh. The Big Two don't listen to fan complaints, they listen to fan $$$. And they have only themselves to blame for training their customers into certain buying patterns and making the DM into the nigh-impenetrable mess it is today. That Marvel's attempted to reach out to a new audience is completely sensible and vital if comics in their current form are going to continue. Now they just have to not blow it.

[Prof. Warren]

Ok, i'll bite.

I find Rebirth to be boring, repetitive, fan-servicing nonsense.

Yes. I've tried several books, like Batman, Detective Comics, Green Arrow, and Action, and it's just bad, in my opinion. At best, the Rebirth books are just innocuous to the point of complete irrelevance. They so badly want to mimic what people liked in the past that it's all just warmed over nostalgia. I mean, Action Comics is a book that reads as though time has stood still since the '90s. For some fans, that's exactly what they want - for comics to provide a safe bubble where a changing world can't penetrate. I don't want that. If that's all I wanted out of comics, I'd stick to back issues and trades and be happy.

I like Marvel because they're not afraid to move forward. I do think they have to find the right balance between doing that and also preserving the past but I don't want Legacy to be Rebirth in the sense of being vapid fan service. Based on how enjoyable the X-line relaunch has been in getting back to basics but not just catering to nostalgia, I have faith that they'll get it right.

[Panfoot]

I like Marvel because they're not afraid to move forward. I do think they have to find the right balance between doing that and also preserving the past but I don't want Legacy to be Rebirth in the sense of being vapid fan service. Based on how enjoyable the X-line relaunch has been in getting back to basics but not just catering to nostalgia, I have faith that they'll get it right.

Well now that's a pretty contradictory statement, given how steeped in nostalgia those books are, even more so than most of the Rebirth books I'm reading.

[ZuLuLu]

Ok, i'll bite.

I find Rebirth to be boring, repetitive, fan-servicing nonsense.


See what happened there?

Agreed.

I became bored of the Rebirth faster than than did of the New 52 and I read most books in the relaunch. However, DC fans on this forum seems to be much happier than Marvel fans, so I guess they did something right.

While I think people are exaggerating Marvel problems, I think ANAD Marvel suffered from the same problems that the New 52 and DC You suffered from which was too much change too soon.

[Rosebunse]

I think Marvel is going through a bit of a rough patch, true.

But I do think certain fans expect too much. Like Secret Empire, which has as an event gotten mostly good reviews. And yet some of you still complain about it.

And you know what? I'm still bitter about kid!Loki. Why? Because had the character been allowed to live, you'd all still complain about him too.