How Much Are We (The Fans) To Blame For Marvel's Current State?

[Prof. Warren]

Well now that's a pretty contradictory statement, given how steeped in nostalgia those books are, even more so than most of the Rebirth books I'm reading.

Blue and Gold are not "steeped in nostalgia." When I read Action Comics, it's a pure '90s throwback. And Green Arrow is just watered down Mike Grell. If that's what people who enjoy them like, great. But even though they're new, I feel like I've already read those books in one form or another so my interest is limited.

Blue or Gold are their own things. Blue isn't just the '60s X-Men all over again. And Gold isn't just a Claremontian flashback.

Acknowledging and incorporating history isn't nostalgia. And solo books like Jean Grey, Iceman, and Cable certainly aren't nostalgia trips, either.

[Coin Biter]

I don't think blame is the right word to use here, either for Marvel or for its readers. Marvel has successfully (by and large) eked out a lengthy period of continuous commercial exploitation of IP that has for the most part been created 30, 40, 55/6 years ago. While it worked for them, the direct market provided decent revenue.

Things are a bit trickier now, and Marvel are reliant on an aging fanbase paying fairly large amount of money to sustain a rather bloated list of titles. They do have the great advantage that Stan Lee's old dream has come true: Marvel characters have now formed the foundations for (relatively) successful TV shows, and (extremely) successful movies, and therefore provide useful IP development for a huge multi-media empire. They're trying to (a) keep an existing readership, (b) appeal to a new readership, (c) navigate a publishing model that once worked brilliantly for them and (d) promote characters to whom they have full IP rights while not wholly jettisoning those whose film or TV licensing rights belong to another studio.

To do that, they are using commercial strategies that alienate some existing and potential readers: constant events, constant tie-ins, and exceedingly high pricing points. But obviously, people don't have to accept those strategies and don't have to buy Marvel comics. At the same time, they are trying to diversify in characters (not so much in subject matter though), which appeals to some, but not to others.

I don't think you can blame Marvel for their commercial strategies. (You could blame them for other things, such as historical treatment of creators, but that's another topic.) You can find them counter-productive, unappealing and decide not to buy - or you can think they are a small price to pay for titles you enjoy. But nor can you blame the fanbase for buying heavily marketed events in bulk, or not buying more diverse titles that are part of a huge list of potential products by a procedure (pre-order) that just doesn't work for many of them. Buying or not buying comics is a consumer choice, if that isn't a reductionist way of referring to what are, as someone remarked, works of art.

I don't know about everyone else, but personally I prefer to be thought of as a reader, than a fan, and I feel no obligation to support anything

[Rosebunse]

I don't think nostalgia is a bad thing, but there are limits and DC is pushing them.

The fact is, we don't appreciate Marvel when they try something new. Some of us even send death threats to the writers.

Look at how much hate Rick Remender got for FrankenCastle, a run which I think most fans will admit was at the least a ton of fun and at best one of the best Punisher stories ever. People hated it before they even read it.

[Realdealholy]

Let's not lie to ourselves. We fans made a LOT of demands on Marvel. We expect them to provide us with fun, interesting stories about the characters we love. But we only want that so long as the characters we love don't change too much and remain exactly as we want them to for now and until the end of time. If they do something novel and fresh, we'll whine about how we want the classics. If they give us the classics, we'll whine about how boring and bland it is. There's literally no way Marvel can win there. They want to excite their customers, but we keep rolling our eyes because they aren't giving us exactly what we want all the time, every time, and without any significant cost. That's like getting mad at the sky for being blue.

Agree completely with this paragraph, and especially with the bold.

[rui no onna]

So let's ask the hard question here. Are we to blame? Are we the reason Marvel's current comic line is in the state it's in?

No. DC and Marvel backed themselves into a corner with their constant price increases during the market's hey days and not developing alternate distribution methods early enough. Fans can make all the demands they want but the choice of what to publish is still ultimately Marvel's and DC's to make.

Marvel can easily float books that are not popular via the direct market. That's how traditional publishing works. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone had an initial print run of, what, 500 copies? Heck, the success of The Walking Dead and Saga is what allows Image to front-end/cover publication costs of new books.

It's Marvel's choice that every single book has to be profitable at a certain minimum level quickly cancelling new books that don't meet that profitability threshold. If it's not an instant hit as single issue floppies, then it's off to the chopping block. Imho, they're better off concentrating their efforts for B-listers towards Marvel Unlimited, comiXology Unlimited and Kindle Unlimited and building readership there.

[TheSeaDragon]

I don't think nostalgia is a bad thing, but there are limits and DC is pushing them.

The fact is, we don't appreciate Marvel when they try something new. Some of us even send death threats to the writers.

Look at how much hate Rick Remender got for FrankenCastle, a run which I think most fans will admit was at the least a ton of fun and at best one of the best Punisher stories ever. People hated it before they even read it.

DC is movin forward. Superman has a son, and there is two diverse Green lanterns. You cant balme fans when Marvel themselves thinks anger readers is a sell point. And you cant force me to like a character just because they are POC. I will never care about ri rih williams of whatever her name is, she never earned her place. If a white 15 years old girl take over the Iron man tittle with just months of existence she would have next to zero fans, when the only point of a character appeal is their colour skin , something is wrong. And is not just Marvel, i said the Same about Snyder and his pet Duke in DC

[TheSeaDragon]

No. DC and Marvel backed themselves into a corner with their constant price increases during the market's hey days and not developing alternate distribution methods early enough. Fans can make all the demands they want but the choice of what to publish is still ultimately Marvel's and DC's to make.

Marvel can easily float books that are not popular via the direct market. That's how traditional publishing works. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone had an initial print run of, what, 500 copies? Heck, the success of The Walking Dead and Saga is what allows Image to front-end/cover publication costs of new books.

It's Marvel's choice that every single book has to be profitable at a certain minimum level quickly cancelling new books that don't meet that profitability threshold. If it's not an instant hit as single issue floppies, then it's off to the chopping block. Imho, they're better off concentrating their efforts for B-listers towards Marvel Unlimited, comiXology Unlimited and Kindle Unlimited and building readership there.

That tho. Thoase princes

You cant charge 5 bucks for Mosaic when DC is charging 3 buck for Batman, is a madness

[ZuLuLu]

DC is movin forward. Superman has a son, and there is two diverse Green lanterns. You cant balme fans when Marvel themselves thinks anger readers is a sell point. And you cant force me to like a character just because they are POC. I will never care about ri rih williams of whatever her name is, she never earned her place. If a white 15 years old girl take over the Iron man tittle with just months of existence she would have next to zero fans, when the only point of a character appeal is their colour skin , something is wrong. And is not just Marvel, i said the Same about Snyder and his pet Duke in DC

You mean like Nadia the Wasp, that fans don't go on and on about the way they do with Riri.

[rui no onna]

You mean like Nadia the Wasp, that fans don't go on and on about the way they do with Riri.

I reckon a lot of people aren't aware that there's even an Unstoppable Wasp book.

Plug, Unstoppable Wasp Vol. 1 TPB is just $12.99. Very much in-line with other children's graphic novels. Would love to see more efforts like this. Buying one to read then to give to my niece.

[Vic Vega]

The only thing to blame for Marvel's current state is Marvel.

Did anybody ask for a Hyperion solo? Or Star Brand/Nightmask?

They throw stuff against the wall randomly to see what sticks. If that isn't
working maybe try having a plan.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Sorry but I'm not taking any blame for Marvel's fall or perceived fall. They put out something I like I'll buy it. If they don't I won't buy it. Simple as that. Marvel is responsible for Marvel not the fans. Marvel's problems are 100% their fault and their problem. If a business starts failing maybe they should clean house and restructure.

[Magneto]

Yes. I've tried several books, like Batman, Detective Comics, Green Arrow, and Action, and it's just bad, in my opinion. At best, the Rebirth books are just innocuous to the point of complete irrelevance. They so badly want to mimic what people liked in the past that it's all just warmed over nostalgia. I mean, Action Comics is a book that reads as though time has stood still since the '90s. For some fans, that's exactly what they want - for comics to provide a safe bubble where a changing world can't penetrate. I don't want that. If that's all I wanted out of comics, I'd stick to back issues and trades and be happy.

I like Marvel because they're not afraid to move forward. I do think they have to find the right balance between doing that and also preserving the past but I don't want Legacy to be Rebirth in the sense of being vapid fan service. Based on how enjoyable the X-line relaunch has been in getting back to basics but not just catering to nostalgia, I have faith that they'll get it right.

But Resurrection is all about nostalgia ? You're contradicting yourself. Yes there's new ideas in the X-line relaunch, but there's also new ideas in Rebirth. Both were sold based on nostalgia.

[skyvolt2000]

I don't think nostalgia is a bad thing, but there are limits and DC is pushing them.

The fact is, we don't appreciate Marvel when they try something new. Some of us even send death threats to the writers.

Look at how much hate Rick Remender got for FrankenCastle, a run which I think most fans will admit was at the least a ton of fun and at best one of the best Punisher stories ever. People hated it before they even read it.

You just summed up the issue.

Fans do share some of the blame.

Buying books with stories that they do not like and then complaining about it every month. And that goes DOUBLE for Inhumans vs X-Men.

Plotting, demanding, encouraging and attacking books that they don't like. Why are there more comments going ham on Moon Girl-a low seller than decent sellers at Marvel & DC. The Vision book was a good read-too bad no one could talk about it because attacks on Inhumans, minorities & LGBT books would not stop.

The attack towards Inhumans was DISGUSTING. Even store owners joined in. NO Inhuman sold movie rights to Fox.

70 books and only 10-20 get ripped nonstop? We got more folks going off on book that they NEVER read then we have folks who have read the books. Especially if all they saw was previews.

Folks cried about new guys not replacing old guys-here comes Mosaic, Monster Unleash and Moon Girl-COMPLAINTS.

Folks cried for Marvel to use guys they already have-they did-Scarlet Witch, Foolkiller, Starbrand and others-COMPLAINTS.

Marvel tried top toss out variety in their books and all we saw was COMPLAINTS before they came out.

Events-if folks hate events-why are they still selling? Whose fault is that?

And for the fan screaming the SJW screamed for this crap and won't support it. The same can be said to you. You didn't read every book that came out. So why do you expect the same? What folks want is a CHANCE at variety. A lot of white male lead book don't sell but you do not see witch hunt or celebration when they fail. Nobody cheered for Foolkiller, Slaprstick & Solo's axing. No one said they shouldn't make white male lead books anymore.


As for DC-like many have said there must be Marvel folks who have not be paying attention or are judging the books by the cover.

Dc gets away with a lot of crap that Marvel has been bashed for.

We talk about PETS-mainly Riri & Miles. No one talks about Jessica Cruz & Simon Baz in two books that once belong to Hal Jordan. Both created by JOHNS.

Nobody asked for Future Quest, Hanna Barrera books, Young Animal line, All New Superman & Superwoman. I have seen ZERO complaints about those books. No one cried these guys got books before Legion & Shazam.

Then you have Dark Forge line and books-everyone seems to be willing to give them a shot. A Batman event about to hold the whole company hostage.

Whose minorities are being treated better Marvel or DC? Funny the most HATED guy at Dc is a black boy named Duke Thomas. Who barely appears in books. Whose solo will be boycotted because 4-6 different fanbases have an issue with him.

For all the crying by Marvel fans-there are DC fans who would GLADLY trade places. You might not like how they are written but at least you got them. How do you think Milestone, Wally West, Cassandra Cain, John Stewart, Stephanie Brown, Tim Drake, Legion, Shazam and so many more feel?

Some are not as vocal (see Tim Drake & Wally West) as they have QUIT Dc (John Stewart & Milestone). Cyborg fans would KILL to be where Black Panther is at. Black Panther The Crew is not even out and it's in the top 600. Cyborg is not even in the top 1000. Even BP WOW is beating him. If it wasn't for Mosaic every black lead solo at Marvel BEATS Cyborg in some form.

X-Men are in better shape that a lot of guys at DC.

[JudicatorPrime]

In over 40+ years of reading comics, I can honestly say that the number of times that Marvel did something that I wanted them to do, that I lobbied endlessly for them to do, can be counted on one hand less a few fingers and the thumb. As I matured I only bought comics that appealed to the things that I wanted to see from Marvel. Don't blame me for the crap that's being put out there now. LOL

[leo619]

Well, first of all, "the state" Marvel's line is in is that they're the #1 publisher. And despite whatever online crying or doomsaying there is about Marvel's supposed troubles, they have been in that position on a more-than-regular basis. It's not like they have to fight their way back to the top spot. They're already there.

And for all the talk about how great Rebirth is, DC's doing about the same as they were before. Their fans might be a little happier than they were during New52 but that hasn't vaulted them to any new ascendant status. They just stopped pissing off their core audience as much. But if you actually look at the DC message boards, you'll still find all the same kind of bitching about DC as many Marvel fans have towards Marvel. Rebirth has not won over every DC fan by any stretch. There's still plenty of grousing to be found on that side of the fence.

But here's the thing - fans love to complain. And older fans especially feel entitled to things being the way they want them to be. There's a feelings of ownership, of investment and of being owed. If a company tries something new, many fans perceive it as an attack on them or they feel that they're being ignored or cast aside for a new audience.

But if companies never try anything new, the industry will just waste away - too afraid of pissing off an aging readership that fears and resents change to ever evolve the way they need to.

Now, staying true to the past and at the same time forging ahead to the future and attracting new readers is a tricky balancing act. And I do think that Marvel seriously misjudged the reader's appetite for change. When storylines like Jane Foster Thor and Superior Spider-Man became so huge and so embraced, I think Marvel took that as a sign that change across the board would be welcome. But it isn't. Not by everyone, at least.

Fans like change as long as it's off-set by a certain level of stability. If you change too much at once, it stops being intriguing and just becomes - for some - disorientating and alienating. It's one thing to have one or two heroes replaced or not themselves at one time but to have almost all your core heroes altered at once, I think causes a lot of people to just tune out.

I think that's the lesson that Marvel learned from ANAD - that change is good and necessary but too much change at once can turn people off. But that's an easy thing to act on and turn around. We'll see what Legacy holds in that regard.



This will be shocking to some fans but trying to attract new readers is kind of important for publishers if they want to survive. They should be obsessed with new readers. It's not just about seeking attention, it's about trying to make people seek out your product - particularly people who have never done so in the past. Just catering to the core audience is a clear path to obsolescence.

Alienating that older audience isn't good either but I think Marvel has gotten the hint on that count.

Quoted for Truth, so much truth in one post it's absolutely remarkable. You might as well close the thread now lol.