How Much Are We (The Fans) To Blame For Marvel's Current State?

[rui no onna]

The only thing to blame for Marvel's current state is Marvel.

Did anybody ask for a Hyperion solo? Or Star Brand/Nightmask?

They throw stuff against the wall randomly to see what sticks. If that isn't working maybe try having a plan.

They didn't but no one ever asked for Harry Potter, either. Did anyone ask for Sandman, The Walking Dead, Saga or Bitch Planet? As far as I'm aware, Kirkman even had to trick Image into publishing The Walking Dead.

I started reading Mockingbird via Marvel Unlimited and started purchasing floppies after reading Twitter posts hoping it wouldn't get cancelled. It got cancelled anyway. Honestly, seems pointless to buy the floppies in order to "support" books and keep them "alive" because it doesn't seem the direct market can support them anyway (the Hastings bankruptcy was probably a huge blow). Even Ms. Marvel is down to sub-20K in floppies while being #2 on Amazon's Graphic Novel Bestseller list.

[skyvolt2000]

That tho. Thoase princes

You cant charge 5 bucks for Mosaic when DC is charging 3 buck for Batman, is a madness

That was ONE issue. ONE. Funny that item is ignored and that book was extra pages.

Did anybody ask for a Hyperion solo? Or Star Brand/Nightmask?

They throw stuff against the wall randomly to see what sticks. If that isn't working maybe try having a plan.

ANd the same can be said for Cave Carson, Mother Panic and others. Yet no one at Dc is throwing fits over those books.

No one is constantly attacking the creative teams of those books.

It goes back to what Redjack screamed. If you don't like it don't read it.

It is not the FAN'S right to start witch hunts to get books that they don't like axed.

If Marvel wants to do that-that is their BUSINESS.

Our business is to buy what we want to try or like.

The entitlement group wants to dictate what is made and sold. It doesn't work like that.

And you cant force me to like a character just because they are POC.

Who is forcing you? No one forced you to read a book. You do have the power of choice.

If a white 15 years old girl take over the Iron man tittle with just months of existence she would have next to zero fans, when the only point of a character appeal is their colour skin , something is wrong.

Show me these white guys who get this much hate from fans?

And how is her skin color her appeal? Have you read the book? That is the point Rui is making. We got POC mainly getting attacked for only being a POC and not a single person even bothering to read the book.

i said the Same about Snyder and his pet Duke in DC

Duke has done nothing at DC. I don't get this limited logic that he is being shoved in our face when every single black character at Marvel including the NEW PATRIOT has done more than him.

To me that scream it's a race issue. I could understand if he was all over the place like say Deadpool or took over a book like Midnight ANgels in Black Panther. But he has done none of that yet.

[rui no onna]

Nobody asked for Future Quest, Hanna Barrera books, Young Animal line, All New Superman & Superwoman. I have seen ZERO complaints about those books. No one cried these guys got books before Legion & Shazam.

You must not have seen the multiple posts calling for Superwoman's cancellation and complaints about how there's now JSA and Legion.

As for the separate imprints, there's value in delineation between the core books and the imprints. The DCU core are your "important" superhero books and are what sells better as floppies (with a few exceptions). Then you've got the Vertigo, Young Animal and Hanna-Barbera imprints that cater to a different audience. The limited series are also clearly labeled as such. Mini-series don't sell well in the direct market but they do better as self-contained TPBs. There have been many who question the new Nightwing: New Order mini-series but I reckon the goal there is to have a perennial trade seller such as Superman: Red Son.

And how is her skin color her appeal? Have you read the book? That is the point Rui is making. We got POC mainly getting attacked for only being a POC and not a single person even bothering to read the book.

Nope, not the point I was trying to make. My point was Marvel is basing the success of their diverse books solely on direct market floppy sales whose demographic, let's admit it, is largely an aging white male fanbase with plenty of disposable income when they should be focusing their efforts on other distribution methods.

Mind, I'm one of those "mythical" new readers. This is my viewpoint from the outside looking in.

[Frontier]

Blue and Gold are not "steeped in nostalgia." When I read Action Comics, it's a pure '90s throwback. And Green Arrow is just watered down Mike Grell. If that's what people who enjoy them like, great. But even though they're new, I feel like I've already read those books in one form or another so my interest is limited.

Blue or Gold are their own things. Blue isn't just the '60s X-Men all over again. And Gold isn't just a Claremontian flashback.

Acknowledging and incorporating history isn't nostalgia. And solo books like Jean Grey, Iceman, and Cable certainly aren't nostalgia trips, either.

I really don't see any difference between Blue and Gold and what DC is doing with Rebirth.

I mean, acknowledging and incorporating history? That's DC Rebirth to a T, and Blue and Gold are as much of a throwback as DC's books are because of how much they try to evoke the past while also "progressing" towards the future. Particularly when you've got the X-Men fighting the Brotherhood and the Sentinels again for the umpteenth time, even if it's new variants of said villains. There's a whole lot of nostalgia to go around for both.

And, of course, DC also has several books that are fairly original while still respecting the past (New Super-Man, Superwoman, Batwoman, Supergirl, JLA, Green Lanterns, etc.)

Green Arrow isn't watered down Mike Grell. Ben Percy's original run was watered down Mike Grell. His current run is far too stylized, Superhero-y, and respectful towards Green Arrow's entire history to be watered down Mike Grell. Certainly Dinah gets to be more active and kick more butt then she did under Grell.

[MarvelMaster616]

Sorry but I'm not taking any blame for Marvel's fall or perceived fall. They put out something I like I'll buy it. If they don't I won't buy it. Simple as that. Marvel is responsible for Marvel not the fans. Marvel's problems are 100% their fault and their problem. If a business starts failing maybe they should clean house and restructure.

Therein lies the issue, though. Fans will buy something they like. Marvel gets that. I get that. Pretty much anyone with a basic understanding of business gets that.

My contention is that we, the fans, send a lot of mixed messages with our money. We claim we want new and interesting characters, but don't bother buying them when Marvel takes a chance. We complain endlessly about Amazing Spider-man, Jane Foster/Thor, and the current lineup of the Avengers, but these books keep selling. How exactly is Marvel supposed to interpret that? We say one thing with our mouths, but do something completely different with our wallets.

Make no mistake. If Marvel know they would sell 500,000 copies of a comic featuring Spider-Man and Captain America playing chess for 21 pages, they'd do it. If we collectively bought every single issue of Moon Girl, requiring multiple printings of every issue, they'd give us more Moon Girl. That's how characters like Spider-Gwen got popular. I remember when she first showed up in SpiderVerse, my local comic shop ran out of every issue two hours within opening. Marvel sees those signs as well as the rest of us. On some levels, we have to acknowledge the role we play in their business. Blaming them completely ignores the very dynamics of how business works.

[ColossusFan]

Blue and Gold are not "steeped in nostalgia." When I read Action Comics, it's a pure '90s throwback. And Green Arrow is just watered down Mike Grell. If that's what people who enjoy them like, great. But even though they're new, I feel like I've already read those books in one form or another so my interest is limited.

Blue or Gold are their own things. Blue isn't just the '60s X-Men all over again. And Gold isn't just a Claremontian flashback.

Acknowledging and incorporating history isn't nostalgia. And solo books like Jean Grey, Iceman, and Cable certainly aren't nostalgia trips, either.

hahahahahahahahaha...

hilarious

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Therein lies the issue, though. Fans will buy something they like. Marvel gets that. I get that. Pretty much anyone with a basic understanding of business gets that.

My contention is that we, the fans, send a lot of mixed messages with our money. We claim we want new and interesting characters, but don't bother buying them when Marvel takes a chance. We complain endlessly about Amazing Spider-man, Jane Foster/Thor, and the current lineup of the Avengers, but these books keep selling. How exactly is Marvel supposed to interpret that? We say one thing with our mouths, but do something completely different with our wallets.

Make no mistake. If Marvel know they would sell 500,000 copies of a comic featuring Spider-Man and Captain America playing chess for 21 pages, they'd do it. If we collectively bought every single issue of Moon Girl, requiring multiple printings of every issue, they'd give us more Moon Girl. That's how characters like Spider-Gwen got popular. I remember when she first showed up in SpiderVerse, my local comic shop ran out of every issue two hours within opening. Marvel sees those signs as well as the rest of us. On some levels, we have to acknowledge the role we play in their business. Blaming them completely ignores the very dynamics of how business works.

Not my problem MM. It's Marvel's problem to figure it out. Every move Marvel makes is Marvel's move. If they can't figure it out then get someone to run it who can. Listening to fans is only one part of it. There are other aspects Marvel does that affect the business. None of which I will go into here. Again if I like it I'll buy it. If I don't I won't. I'm certainly not going to blame myself for not buying what I don't want to. Give me something I like and I'll buy it. X-Men Blue is one thing. I'm not buying a whole lot of Marvel these days except retro TPB's. I liked Ant-Man. Cancelled. Spider-Woman. Cancelled. That's business. Low sales gets the axe. I understand this.

[The Kid]

I think the only reason some fans are mad at Marvel is how it seems a lot of their big names have been thrown to the side. If they had figured out a way to maintain their classic heroes along with the legacies (like Peter and Miles or even Janet and Nadia), people would not be as mad. As it stands, Stark is in a coma, Banner is dead, Logan is dead, Thor is unworthy, and Cap is a freaking Nazi. If Legacy can bring all incarnations back and give them a piece, I think most of the talk will die down

[Kurolegacy]

You mean like Nadia the Wasp, that fans don't go on and on about the way they do with Riri.

While that may be partially the case, I do remember there being a bit of a divide back when they announced a new Wasp, especially when Janet had barely been featured since the end of Axis. Even now, while people aren't vocal about her, her sales aren't exactly reflecting interest in her, with sales dropping like a rock each month.

[Vic Vega]

They didn't but no one ever asked for Harry Potter, either. Did anyone ask for Sandman, The Walking Dead, Saga or Bitch Planet? As far as I'm aware, Kirkman even had to trick Image into publishing The Walking Dead.

I started reading Mockingbird via Marvel Unlimited and started purchasing floppies after reading Twitter posts hoping it wouldn't get cancelled. It got cancelled anyway. Honestly, seems pointless to buy the floppies in order to "support" books and keep them "alive" because it doesn't seem the direct market can support them anyway (the Hastings bankruptcy was probably a huge blow). Even Ms. Marvel is down to sub-20K in floppies while being #2 on Amazon's Graphic Novel Bestseller list.

Why are we comparing mainstream apples with Indy Oranges?

Vertigo books aren't expected to large sales numbers nor are most Image Titles these days. I personally love Brubaker's Criminal.

If Marvel were to bring back the Epic Imprint and published say, Arkon and Skull the Slayer on there I wouldn't say a word.

The expectations for a indy publishers is different.

[Prof. Warren]

hahahahahahahahaha...

hilarious

...But also true. Blue and Gold are not retreads, just fondly hearkening back to the good old days.

I really don't see any difference between Blue and Gold and what DC is doing with Rebirth.

I mean, acknowledging and incorporating history? That's DC Rebirth to a T, and Blue and Gold are as much of a throwback as DC's books are because of how much they try to evoke the past while also "progressing" towards the future. Particularly when you've got the X-Men fighting the Brotherhood and the Sentinels again for the umpteenth time, even if it's new variants of said villains. There's a whole lot of nostalgia to go around for both.

Moving forward doesn't mean you can't fight any of your old enemies anymore. It's not a complete jettisoning of everything.

With Blue you have Jean leading the team, the O5 working for Magneto, Beast pursuing an interest in magic and the occult, and so on.

If Blue were a Rebirth title, you know that Charles Xavier would be back from the dead, leading the team again, saying "To me, my X-Men!" every issue. Hank wouldn't be into magic, Warren wouldn't have his cosmic wings and Bobby wouldn't be out.

And Gold has Kitty leading the team for the first time. And the X-mansion is now smack in the middle of Central Park. And the issue of deporting mutants is something that is pertinent to the here and now and not just generic mutant hysteria. This isn't just a retro title, with everyone in their early '90s duds.

Most importantly, the characters in Blue and Gold are people who have progressed and who have a history to draw on.

With Rebirth, it's more of just a messy patchwork of different eras. The new Superman timeline is a clumsy cut and paste job, for instance. I don't see how anyone can look at that and say "Oh, that's fine." I mean, it's like gluing together a vase that was shattered. It might look ok but you can never put water in it again without it leaking all over. Like New52 (and Crisis on Infinite Earths, for that matter), Rebirth has been less of a natural progression than it was a hard jerk of the wheel.

[Nick Miller]

I think the only reason some fans are mad at Marvel is how it seems a lot of their big names have been thrown to the side. If they had figured out a way to maintain their classic heroes along with the legacies (like Peter and Miles or even Janet and Nadia), people would not be as mad. As it stands, Stark is in a coma, Banner is dead, Logan is dead, Thor is unworthy, and Cap is a freaking Nazi. If Legacy can bring all incarnations back and give them a piece, I think most of the talk will die down

Bingo

It's not that hard people, you can do both.

Marvels problems are more retailer based.

You think, a book sold poorly at 17,000 copies? How bout the 12,000 of those still on retailers shelves. They are pissed.

How would Star Wars fans, or Xfiles, or game of thrones, react if half their favorite characters were sidelined?
Or if Sherlock Holmes was in a coma, etc. etc

What marvel has done these last 3-4 years is madness.
No one is paying 4 bucks a pop for Prowler, or Spider-Man 2099
I say this as a fan, as there will always be 5-10 good books that have my interest
But it should be 15-20 books.

[Rosebunse]

I think the only reason some fans are mad at Marvel is how it seems a lot of their big names have been thrown to the side. If they had figured out a way to maintain their classic heroes along with the legacies (like Peter and Miles or even Janet and Nadia), people would not be as mad. As it stands, Stark is in a coma, Banner is dead, Logan is dead, Thor is unworthy, and Cap is a freaking Nazi. If Legacy can bring all incarnations back and give them a piece, I think most of the talk will die down

Am I the only one who likes things this way? It's fun and depressing!

[Pav]

Marvel keeps putting out comics that I enjoy reading. I buy some monthly to support my favorites and read a lot of others on Marvel Unlimited.

I don't read anything that doesn't interest me.

I have nothing to complain about, save a little frustration that Spider-Gwen is up and down a bit for me. But I don't dwell on it, and eventually if I'm not a fan of the trajectory, I'll stop paying monthly for it.

I just don't get all the negativity.

My favorite character was basically ignored for twenty years. Yet - somehow! - I was able to continue reading and enjoying comic books.

If you're not enjoying your comics, you're doing it wrong.

-Pav, who supposes someone people like being negative...

[DurararaFTW]

We are a bit to blame. Look at the Storm solo, it had a great writer and great art. It did not sell because, in my eyes anyway, it didn't matter. Storm's main narrative was clearly over in the X-Men team books she was appearing in. So Marvel's gonna get our sales by doing comics that "matter", in other words, event overload.