How Much Are We (The Fans) To Blame For Marvel's Current State?

[rui no onna]

So yes, we are to blame for what Marvel is delivering, if the publisher is listening to demand. If he's not, (and he made up all this diversity himself) then it's all on him.

I think Marvel's having a hard time striking a balance. I do believe there's pent-up demand for diverse superhero books. The problem is Marvel tends to go overboard on the stuff that sell so they stop selling all that well.

#1s sell? Constant renumbering.

Events and crossovers sell? They start doing them every two years, then every year, then every quarter.

Variants sell? I think if we look at the Previews Retailer Order Forms which list various incentive variants not included in the Customer Order Forms, we'll probably find Marvel has more variants than they have regular books.

Legacy heroes sell? They change a large portion of their heroes into legacies.

[jackolover]

I think Marvel's having a hard time striking a balance. I do believe there's pent-up demand for diverse superhero books. The problem is Marvel tends to go overboard on the stuff that sell so they stop selling all that well.

#1s sell? Constant renumbering.

Events and crossovers sell? They start doing them every two years, then every year, then every quarter.

Variants sell? I think if we look at the Previews Retailer Order Forms which list various incentive variants not included in the Customer Order Forms, we'll probably find Marvel has more variants than they have regular books.

Legacy heroes sell? They change a large portion of their heroes into legacies.

I can certainly relate to Marvel variant covers. I bought 3 this week. A Sarentino cover for SE #4, an MJ Dr Strange cover which I love, and one other I can't recall just now, so variant covers do get my dollars.

[Raye]

I think this is a question that needs to be asked. We've seen a lot of complaining and debates within these threads. I freely admit I've done more than my share of both. There's all this talk about how much people hate Hydra Cap, how much they want a worthy Thor back, how much they hate some of the replacement characters, how much they had the hero-versus-hero clashes, how much they hate relaunches, etc. I don't want this to be another thread about the state of Marvel's sales figures. That's an issue nobody outside the industry is qualified to discuss. But the more I see these issues pop up, the more I wonder whether this is a classic, "It's not you, it's me" type scenario.

Let's not lie to ourselves. We fans made a LOT of demands on Marvel. We expect them to provide us with fun, interesting stories about the characters we love. But we only want that so long as the characters we love don't change too much and remain exactly as we want them to for now and until the end of time. If they do something novel and fresh, we'll whine about how we want the classics. If they give us the classics, we'll whine about how boring and bland it is. There's literally no way Marvel can win there. They want to excite their customers, but we keep rolling our eyes because they aren't giving us exactly what we want all the time, every time, and without any significant cost. That's like getting mad at the sky for being blue.

So let's ask the hard question here. Are we to blame? Are we the reason Marvel's current comic line is in the state it's in?

Ok for the record, I actually LIKE a lot of the books right now, so the "state" of the books is nothing to bitch about on the whole, imo. I mean sure, there are some duds, books i wanted to like but didn't, but that has always been the case. I drop them and move on. My biggest fear with Legacy was that they would do a big sweeping return to status quo, and I didn't want that, i didnt want all the stuff that's happened to just get swept under the rug in the name of nostalgia, and am relieved it wasn't. I mean sure, not every book is my cup of tea, and even the ones I generally like have things about them I may not entirely agree with. But here is the thing, I am OK with that. I don't expect every book in the line to cater to me, i am perfectly happy to have a handful that i enjoy. And since I am not writing the books, I know going in they are never, ever, going to be to my exact preferences, because the creators are not me, and are not obligated to cater to me specifically, and i just roll with it. A lot of my favorite stories have come as the result of major shakeups and changes, i dont believe different or change are synonymous with bad, so I am basically cool to see how these things shake out, and am often pleased with the results. When I am not pleased with them, I know that like, 90% of the time, a return to status quo is in the future sometime, unless the change is particularly well received, and sometimes even then.

But yeah, I have seen a lot of the attitude you describe flying around, and what is telling is that while many people agree that they don't like the current direction, when it comes to how they would fix it, suddenly everyone has different ideas. Because that is how people work, they like different things, they want different things. But somehow they expect every book to be just for them, or it is awful and deserves the axe, never mind that some other people may really enjoy it, and they deserve a book that they enjoy just as much as anyone else.

That being said, maybe Marvel did too much change too fast, but i dont think the answer is a complete change of course, just a bit of an adjustment to bring a bit more of the old back into the mix.

Ok, i'll bite.

I find Rebirth to be boring, repetitive, fan-servicing nonsense.


See what happened there?

Add me to that list, the nostalgia of Rebirth actually bored me, and I ended up dropping a lot. The only DC books I get now are stuff like Wild Storm and Doom Patrol.

[Moriarty]

all i can say is i buy what i like. i don't waste time or money on comics that will make me mad. if Marvel gets less and less of my money that is not my problem.

[Tiamatty]

The obsession with new readers and forgetting the people that actually made them who they are today and stuck with them for decades also played a part.

Of course they're obsessed with new readers. The comic book market is goddamn tiny. And appealing primarily to long-time readers is a recipe for disaster. New readers are necessary for Marvel's survival. I think Marvel's done a **** job of reaching out to new readers, but they are actually taking some reasonable steps. But the point remains: Holy **** do they ever need to reach out to new readers. Marvel would happily slaughter a small town for the kind of sales Raina Telgemeier gets, because for all that Marvel and DC are The Big Two, they are still incredibly niche, and if they can't expand their audience, they risk dying.

The House of Ideas is also is lacking writer talent right now.

BUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLL! SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT!

I hate that argument. Hate it. Loathe it with the fury of a million dying suns. It is straight-up goddamn insulting to the amazingly talented people writing at Marvel right now. Any criticism of Marvel that's based on demeaning the creative talent is a criticism that does not deserve to be given any consideration.





Marvel's biggest problems, right now, are definitely self-inflicted, and the result of decades of terrible decisions by both Marvel and DC (but especially Marvel, I'd argue). They set up the direct market, which has always been a mixed blessing, but today, it is strangling them. The focus on superhero comics has kept so many readers out of the comic book hobby, and now, the Internet is increasingly eating Marvel's and DC's lunches by appealing to audiences who want something different. The same also applies to creators and audiences who are female, POC or LGBTQ+. And Marvel has no goddamn idea how to tap into those markets. They really don't. They've made it almost impossible for themselves. They over-saturated the market with superheroes, they kept out anyone who wasn't a straight white male, and now, they have no respect among those other communities. So Marvel's stuck putting band-aids on top of band-aids, flailing desperately for a way to stay relevant in an age where they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

And I say all this as someone who loves Marvel. I generally buy ~20 Marvel comics a month, which is the bulk of my monthly pull list. I think Marvel still has a ton of amazing comics coming out - more than I can afford to buy, frankly, so there's a bunch of fantastic comics I only read on Unlimited, 6 months after the fact. I think Marvel's putting out loads of great great content.

But they're still a huge reason why the comic book industry is deeply ill.

Also, to hell with Diamond. The major publishers all need to figure out some way of killing Diamond.

[nx01a]

If we fans have done anything wrong it's continuing to buy some of the substandard titles and events DisMarvel's been releasing instead of voting with our wallets. I respect Marvel for trying with new properties or uplifting the status of older ones but the way this is being done is usually disrespectful to the more established properties and those who love them.

It's true that some fans will never be happy. That's a fact of life. But as I've seen it, DC's Rebirth has been the right combination of classic and new. Marvel is missing that mark by a lot.
The House of Ideas is also is lacking writer talent right now. The really great authors of the recent past have gone to greener pastures. Marvel's recent trend is to grab people with little to no comic experience, but it shouldn't be surprising when those books aren't good.

Marvel has to grab the less experienced writers because editorial has driven away the more experienced ones, a cycle that will only repeat itself when Marvel seems all about event after event and not letting & helping writers craft quality stories for the long haul.

[Nick Miller]

No.

And, as for the "fans want nothing to ever change" canard, that's an oversimplified cliche. What fans are really railing against is inconsistency. Changes that occur need to be consistent with what's come before. They need to feel like an organic evolution and extension of the past. For example, when previously heroic, upstanding protagonists walk out on their families or cheat on their wives, that's inconsistent and offensive. On a more meta-level, when a long-standing hero's decades-long marriage is retconned away via a blatant, out of character deus ex machina in order to satisfy the editor-in-chief's personal preferences, that's inconsistent and offensive.

Change is fine as long as it makes sense. Ensuring that sort of consistency is the job of the editors. That's where the creative buck stops, and that's ultimately who's to blame for inconsistent character portrayals, flagrant disregard for continuity, and poor stories.

As for the state of Marvel more broadly, many of its problems are endemic to the comics industry as a whole. There's never been much of a culture or ethic of professionalism. The business side has historically been petty and dirty as all get out. Most importantly, though, publishers remain wedded to an obsolete business model.

Read accounts by people who've worked in the industry for a long time. As a fan, it does ruin a lot of the magic for you, but it educates you as to the reality that writers, artists, and editors have to deal with. I recommend starting with Jim Shooter's blog at www.jimshooter.com. Other good sources are Tom DeFalco's trilogy of Comics Creators books on Spider-Man, X-Men, and the Fantastic Four as well as Sean Howe's Marvel Comics: The Untold Story.

If the business model is obsolete, than comics are obsolete.

It's publishing, and everyone knows, an artist can do about 20 pages a month. And everyone needs to get PAID.

And everyone needs to understand, comics are a tiny niche, no more than 500,000 regular readers. There are more opera fans, more bowling participants , more crochet enthusiasts.

Acting like the audience is going to die out, it's not. They are going to get replaced. It's just that there is no room for growth.

Comics lose to cell phones, video games, YouTube, tv, movies, sports, etc.

So why would a publisher chase "a diversified audience, which make up less than 10 percent of hobbyists?

[Nick Miller]

I feel like we're reading/watching different things. The books I read regularly feature characters dying or getting maimed quite gruesomely. That said, the events actually do matter and character deaths usually stick unless they become mindless wights or are turned into shadows of their former selves (e.g. Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn Stark.

Yes, but were those characters replaced? The Lannisters are still the Lannisters. DArth Vader wasn't turned into a woman. Fox Mulder wasn't replaced by Wolf Harrington......

[Nick Miller]

all i can say is i buy what i like. i don't waste time or money on comics that will make me mad. if Marvel gets less and less of my money that is not my problem.

But is Marvel publishing what you like?

[Nick Miller]

Of course they're obsessed with new readers. The comic book market is goddamn tiny. And appealing primarily to long-time readers is a recipe for disaster. New readers are necessary for Marvel's survival. I think Marvel's done a **** job of reaching out to new readers, but they are actually taking some reasonable steps. But the point remains: Holy **** do they ever need to reach out to new readers. Marvel would happily slaughter a small town for the kind of sales Raina Telgemeier gets, because for all that Marvel and DC are The Big Two, they are still incredibly niche, and if they can't expand their audience, they risk dying.


BUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLL! SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT!

I hate that argument. Hate it. Loathe it with the fury of a million dying suns. It is straight-up goddamn insulting to the amazingly talented people writing at Marvel right now. Any criticism of Marvel that's based on demeaning the creative talent is a criticism that does not deserve to be given any consideration.





Marvel's biggest problems, right now, are definitely self-inflicted, and the result of decades of terrible decisions by both Marvel and DC (but especially Marvel, I'd argue). They set up the direct market, which has always been a mixed blessing, but today, it is strangling them. The focus on superhero comics has kept so many readers out of the comic book hobby, and now, the Internet is increasingly eating Marvel's and DC's lunches by appealing to audiences who want something different. The same also applies to creators and audiences who are female, POC or LGBTQ+. And Marvel has no goddamn idea how to tap into those markets. They really don't. They've made it almost impossible for themselves. They over-saturated the market with superheroes, they kept out anyone who wasn't a straight white male, and now, they have no respect among those other communities. So Marvel's stuck putting band-aids on top of band-aids, flailing desperately for a way to stay relevant in an age where they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

And I say all this as someone who loves Marvel. I generally buy ~20 Marvel comics a month, which is the bulk of my monthly pull list. I think Marvel still has a ton of amazing comics coming out - more than I can afford to buy, frankly, so there's a bunch of fantastic comics I only read on Unlimited, 6 months after the fact. I think Marvel's putting out loads of great great content.

But they're still a huge reason why the comic book industry is deeply ill.

Also, to hell with Diamond. The major publishers all need to figure out some way of killing Diamond.

What a load of crap.

Marvel is mediocre right now, at best. With mediocre art. That's what happens when you put out 85 books a month.

they have tons of diversified books, many are awful, but still.....they made the effort.

But like you said, expanding the audience is not going to happen.

If the tremendous success of the Netflix shows and the movies can't do it, nothing will. And they know that. Time to make comics for 40 year old males again.

Bring back

[Xalfrea]

You can agree or disagree on the stories, but to say that Marvel Comics is lacking talent whatsoever is insulting. There's a world of difference between "These writers just don't write stuff I care about" and "These writers aren't talented because I don't like their stories".

And I don't see the old Ms. Marvel coming back any time soon, least of which because we have that freaking movie coming up.

[WebLurker]

Marvel's biggest problems, right now, are definitely self-inflicted, and the result of decades of terrible decisions by both Marvel and DC (but especially Marvel, I'd argue). They set up the direct market, which has always been a mixed blessing, but today, it is strangling them. The focus on superhero comics has kept so many readers out of the comic book hobby, and now, the Internet is increasingly eating Marvel's and DC's lunches by appealing to audiences who want something different. The same also applies to creators and audiences who are female, POC or LGBTQ+. And Marvel has no goddamn idea how to tap into those markets. They really don't. They've made it almost impossible for themselves. They over-saturated the market with superheroes, they kept out anyone who wasn't a straight white male, and now, they have no respect among those other communities. So Marvel's stuck putting band-aids on top of band-aids, flailing desperately for a way to stay relevant in an age where they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

One possible problem: Marvel's characters (and DC's, for that matter) are incredibly popular thanks to adaptations, like movies. The superhero films are the big summer blockbusters now, and most of them feature the older characters. While comics themselves might be a shrinking medium for these stories and characters, I doubt that the problem is that most audiences want different characters. Most of these are becoming mainstream for the first time.

[Moriarty]

But is Marvel publishing what you like?

some. i like most of the new X-Men stuff. books like Avengers, Uncanny Avengers and Daredevil. Dr Strange. Thor. the most recent Moon Knight volume.

[Wolverine12]

The only thing to blame for Marvel's current state is Marvel.

Did anybody ask for a Hyperion solo? Or Star Brand/Nightmask?

They throw stuff against the wall randomly to see what sticks. If that isn't
working maybe try having a plan.

I asked for a Hyperion and a Nighthawk solo. I didn't ask for Hyperion as a truck driver. . Nighthawk's solo was great though.

Back OT, I don't think it's the reader's fault at all for the current state of Marvel outside of our dollars pushing the direction that Marvel decides to go. I'm fine with them trying new stuff, but sometimes I think their approach is poorly thought out. Giving solo titles to characters like Soldier, Slapstick and Mosaic with out any real demand for these titles seems like a futile effort. They should have put these character's into team books to see how they were received before committing to solo books. I also don't understand why they would sideline so many "A" lister's simultaneously. Wolverine, Hulk and Iron Man all sell comics easy but they are all off the table at the moment, at least in their "traditional" format. Cap is another guaranteed money maker and while I am personally enjoying SE, I can definitely understand why fans are upset. It's like Marvel decided to completely write off their core fan base for a few years to try new stuff. That is fine and it's their choice but I don't blame myself or anyone else for Marvel's actions. Some of the new stuff has been really good, like I said earlier I really enjoyed the Nighthawk solo, and I also enjoyed Squadron Supreme. I'm all for Marvel making new books and characters but I think that if they know what sells they should focus on that and making sure that those products are the best on the market first and after they secure those dollars try the new books and the new characters.

[rui no onna]

If the business model is obsolete, than comics are obsolete.

It's publishing, and everyone knows, an artist can do about 20 pages a month. And everyone needs to get PAID.

And everyone needs to understand, comics are a tiny niche, no more than 500,000 regular readers. There are more opera fans, more bowling participants , more crochet enthusiasts.

Acting like the audience is going to die out, it's not. They are going to get replaced. It's just that there is no room for growth.

Comics lose to cell phones, video games, YouTube, tv, movies, sports, etc.

So why would a publisher chase "a diversified audience, which make up less than 10 percent of hobbyists?

Within the direct market, yes, room for growth is limited. You're right, the direct market has a hard time supporting all of Marvel's monthly floppy output. The prices for single issues are a huge deterrent. And hey, I'm all for Marvel bringing back the classic characters the older fanbase clamor for. I actually don't understand why Marvel doesn't keep both classic and legacy characters. Coming from the movies, the classic characters are actually the ones I'm familiar with so I've mostly just read Brubaker's Cap and Secret Avengers runs.

However, that doesn't mean there's no market for diverse comic books. It's just that a large part of that demographic may not want (or may have limited funds) to purchase their comics via the direct market preferring digital or trades instead. Embrace inexpensive HBONow-style subscription fully and they might actually find there are more comic readers than expected specially now that being a comic reader is not anathema anymore. I think Marvel should experiment more with formats and distribution of new books. DC needs to copy Marvel Unlimited stat or have an add-on service to comiXology Unlimited or something.

Publishers need to take risks in order to grow their audience and not just keep increasing floppy prices to maintain their profits. I don't think a lot of people would be happy if comic book publishers started charging $10/issue.

Mind, I also don't get the every character needs to have an ongoing solo mentality and that having them in team books or as supporting characters is somehow a failure. My favorite characters in manga usually aren't the main heroes but I'm not clamoring for the main hero to be replaced with my fave or for my fave to get a solo. My favorite character in Harry Potter is Hermione Granger and I'm perfectly fine reading about her in the HP books.

As for the 500,000 regular readers...
http://www.comicsbeat.com/tilting-at...out-nighthawk/

This is why there are not “100,000” readers of comics, like the pundits will declare – a typical month of periodical comics sells like 6.5 million pieces. Most of that is getting to end consumers, and I can assure you the average customer isn’t buying 65 comics a month! Maybe a tenth of that, at most – most stores have many customers who only buy 1-2 comics a month. And that doesn’t even include whatever digital is (about 8-10% we’re led to believe). No, it’s highly unlikely that there are less than, oh, one and a half or two million people who read serialized comics in America today.