Infidelity/Cheating in DC Comics

[Frontier]

Not really. Mike Grell was the one who laid the foundation for that and in any case it works for the better since the idea of Ollie being this extremely flawed person who acts by his emotions instead of his brain makes him a much more complex and interesting character, one that knows what he does is bad but most of the time does it anyway which of course, contrasts wonderfully with his career as a hero.

Also, Winick's run is extremely influential since that pretty much was where the idea of Team Arrow was defined and nobody has done a better job at creating a family dynamic for this series than Winick.

And now it runs in the family .

[CryNotWolf]

Thankfully DC authors don't hinge on infidelity as an easy way to drum up drama as often as Marvel writers seem to do. And most of DC's cases seem to have taken place decades ago, when it was still in vogue. Thinking off the top of my head, it's difficult to recall such an event taking place recently. I recently read Sword of the Atom, and Jean Loring cheats on her husband Ray Palmer (AKA The Atom) at the very beginning, but that was decades ago.

The closest I can think of was Tom King trying to stir the pot with hinting at a pre-nuptial affair between Batman and Wonder Woman earlier this year.

[Agent Z]

Not really. Mike Grell was the one who laid the foundation for that and in any case it works for the better since the idea of Ollie being this extremely flawed person who acts by his emotions instead of his brain makes him a much more complex and interesting character, one that knows what he does is bad but most of the time does it anyway which of course, contrasts wonderfully with his career as a hero.

Also, Winick's run is extremely influential since that pretty much was where the idea of Team Arrow was defined and nobody has done a better job at creating a family dynamic for this series than Winick.

Grell wrote Oliver as being raped and treated it as consensual sex and then other writers who made the same mistake viewed Oliver as a cheater. Denny O'Niel wrote Oliver as flawed and complex without turning him into Charlie Harper.

[The Darknight Detective]

Grell wrote Oliver as being raped and treated it as consensual sex and then other writers who made the same mistake viewed Oliver as a cheater. Denny O'Niel wrote Oliver as flawed and complex without turning him into Charlie Harper.

Yep. Flawed and complex, but still likable, is better than flawed, complex, and less likable, IMO.

[Rakzo]

Grell wrote Oliver as being raped and treated it as consensual sex and then other writers who made the same mistake viewed Oliver as a cheater. Denny O'Niel wrote Oliver as flawed and complex without turning him into Charlie Harper.

Again, as always I'm not talking about the Shado thing, I'm talking about the affair with Marianne which Ollie admitted let it happen because he wanted it.

And no, Ollie is not Charlie Harper because Ollie actually recognizes his mistakes and regrets them (Mind you "recognize" and "regret" don't mean that those mistakes won't be made again but that's another topic).

Yep. Flawed and complex, but still likable, is better than flawed, complex, and less likable, IMO.

Nah. If history has taught me anything is that blatant hypocrisy is one of the most unlikable traits that a character can ever have and in fact makes the audience less fond of such character. That was O'Neil's Ollie. Not saying that a character like that shouldn't exist but they shouldn't be the focus of a story because it would become pretty insufferable pretty fast.

Take for example Diane Nguyen from the show Bojack Horseman. She's by far the least popular character in the show and not because her personality is necessarily bad but because she has shown terrible moments of hypocrisy concerning her own beliefs but fortunately she's not the protagonist and even Bojack, despite of having scenes that make him pretty unlikable, is still popular because his flaws make him understandable and human (and speaking of which, I think a well-written Ollie should pretty much be portrayed as Bojack albeit less depressed).

[vartox]

Grell wrote Oliver as being raped and treated it as consensual sex and then other writers who made the same mistake viewed Oliver as a cheater. Denny O'Niel wrote Oliver as flawed and complex without turning him into Charlie Harper.

Ollie also slept with Melanie (or was it Melody? I forget) in a consensual encounter, which was one of the last straws for Dinah. The Shado thing was definitely rape, though.

[Agent Z]

Again, as always I'm not talking about the Shado thing, I'm talking about the affair with Marianne which Ollie admitted let it happen because he wanted it.

The affair with Marianne was done after the Shado rape. And given both were written by Grell, it’s hard to buy his characterization of Oliver as a cheater (when prior to that oliver was utterly devoted to Dinah).

And no, Ollie is not Charlie Harper because Ollie actually recognizes his mistakes and regrets them (Mind you "recognize" and "regret" don't mean that those mistakes won't be made again but that's another topic).

Charlie Harper recognizes his mistakes to. He still makes them.

Nah. If history has taught me anything is that blatant hypocrisy is one of the most unlikable traits that a character can ever have and in fact makes the audience less fond of such character. That was O'Neil's Ollie. Not saying that a character like that shouldn't exist but they shouldn't be the focus of a story because it would become pretty insufferable pretty fast.

Take for example Diane Nguyen from the show Bojack Horseman. She's by far the least popular character in the show and not because her personality is necessarily bad but because she has shown terrible moments of hypocrisy concerning her own beliefs but fortunately she's not the protagonist and even Bojack, despite of having scenes that make him pretty unlikable, is still popular because his flaws make him understandable and human (and speaking of which, I think a well-written Ollie should pretty much be portrayed as Bojack albeit less depressed).

A protagonist who never learns from his mistakes and keeps repeating them over and over again is just as likely to have the audience turn on him. Whether it’s hypocrisy or infidelity or whatever moral failing he has, Oliver’s inability to grow the hell up makes it harder and harder for audiences to tolerate him as the main protagonist. Just ask the Arrow fandom.

[Rakzo]

The affair with Marianne was done after the Shado rape. And given both were written by Grell, it’s hard to buy his characterization of Oliver as a cheater (when prior to that oliver was utterly devoted to Dinah).

It still happened under Grell and that doesn't really mean that Ollie doesn't love Dinah, again, is just because he doesn't think about the consequences.

Charlie Harper recognizes his mistakes to. He still makes them.

His character is basically a caricature in a comedy. There's not a lot of depth in recognizing his mistakes.

A protagonist who never learns from his mistakes and keeps repeating them over and over again is just as likely to have the audience turn on him. Whether it’s hypocrisy or infidelity or whatever moral failing he has, Oliver’s inability to grow the hell up makes it harder and harder for audiences to tolerate him as the main protagonist. Just ask the Arrow fandom.

The thing is that Ollie does try to be better. He always does but his own nature always fights against him. That is what makes him interesting.

And I never said that I want Ollie to cheat on anyone again, that's why I firmly believe that he shouldn't have any serious relationship.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yes, I am aware that Grell started this ball rolling, but that doesn't mean Judd Winnick should have picked up that turd and continued running with it. Gail Simone said it best when she said that Ollie cheating on Dinah once is forgivable and perfectly in character for both of them, but when it happens again and again, it starts to make both Ollie & Dinah look terrible.

[Rakzo]

Yes, I am aware that Grell started this ball rolling, but that doesn't mean Judd Winnick should have picked up that turd and continued running with it. Gail Simone said it best when she said that Ollie cheating on Dinah once is forgivable and perfectly in character for both of them, but when it happens again and again, it starts to make both Ollie & Dinah look terrible.

Yeah, that's why Dinah should have left Ollie a long time ago. The problems start when DC puts them back together while they're immensely better and more interesting when they're on their own.

[Trey Strain]

Yep. Flawed and complex, but still likable, is better than flawed, complex, and less likable, IMO.

When Jay Leno and David Letterman competed in late night television, most people thought Letterman was funnier, yet Leno consistently beat Letterman in the ratings. That was because Leno was more likable.

Some analysts think George W. Bush beat Al Gore in 2000 for the same reason.

I remember when they relaunched Green Arrow and let Judd Winick write the relaunch, even though he had written the comic's decline. That amazed me.

[The Kid]

Bumping this since I just finished the Harley Quinn cartoon and that included Ivy cheating on Kite Man with Harley. I think in the telltale game, Selina is casually dating Harvey if you choose to have Bruce romance her as well.

Just remembered this thread after watching that episode lol

[John Venus]

I remember Robinson had Dinah Drake (Dinah Laure's mother) sleep with Starman/Ted Knight thus cheating on their respective spouses. Which Waid followed up on JLA: Year One. Or was it the other way around. I hope whenever the JSA comes back this element is never touched on.

[Frontier]

Bumping this since I just finished the Harley Quinn cartoon and that included Ivy cheating on Kite Man with Harley. I think in the telltale game, Selina is casually dating Harvey if you choose to have Bruce romance her as well.

Just remembered this thread after watching that episode lol

Also Lois Lane was purported to be cheating on Clark Kent with Superman to the public before he revealed his identity to everyone.

I remember Robinson had Dinah Drake (Dinah Laure's mother) sleep with Starman/Ted Knight thus cheating on their respective spouses. Which Waid followed up on JLA: Year One. Or was it the other way around. I hope whenever the JSA comes back this element is never touched on.

Didn't Dinah cheat on Larry Lance with both Teds (Starman and Wildcat)?

[Robanker]

Yes, I am aware that Grell started this ball rolling, but that doesn't mean Judd Winnick should have picked up that turd and continued running with it. Gail Simone said it best when she said that Ollie cheating on Dinah once is forgivable and perfectly in character for both of them, but when it happens again and again, it starts to make both Ollie & Dinah look terrible.

Winick has done more harm to Ollie than good, if you ask me. From making Ollie a martial artist (thus screwing up the GA/BC power dynamic of long/short range spheres of potency to illustrate them as a team that truly relies on each other to work) to his cheating, it was a big mess. I hate that Grell run for how poorly it reflects on Dinah. I don't much care for most of Winick's work on Green Arrow.

Writers who turn Ollie into a big hypocrite regarding his family generally ruin the character for me. Not really the Green Arrow I care for. That incarnation is better left retconned out. I don't think he's been unfaithful to Dinah since Flashpoint so keep it that way. I think he works best as someone who loves Dinah madly but is terrified of asking her to marry him, possibly because a rejection would render him catatonic.


But I came here to say Dick Grayson. No, not the times he was raped as some like to shame him with (seriously, that happened with Ollie/Shado as well) but in Nightwing Annual #2 when he slept with Barbara prior to his wedding to Kori. Considering how since NTT, DC has done their best to distance Dick from Kori and make that relationship seem more like a fling than actual love, his infidelity in that annual is starting to feel more and more in character since they want Barbara to be his Lois Lane.