Batman Knightfall Review (Canon Read Through #39)

[JBatmanFan05]

This is a random question but has Bruce ever beaten Bane in combat? I heard of a story called Legacy but I've never read it. I know it has something to do with Bane though.

Yes, once or even twice in Legacy (& its epilogue Batman: Bane) is the first that happens. I think in NML he maybe beats him there (could be wrong). Some other more recent times maybe I haven't read, and just recently in Tom King's Batman run.

[millernumber1]

I kinda like Eternal in that it's a good Cluemaster tale, the best we're likely to see for a long time perhaps. I actually really enjoyed Superheavy and hope some big writer uses Mr Bloom again in a serious way (and not like the subpar often jobbing ways Pyg has been used Post-Morrison). So many interesting villains disappear after their creator finishes.

I loved Eternal because it felt like living in Gotham for a year, once every week. It's also what got me back into comics after three years, because I left when Steph was deleted, and came back when she was recreated. So the excitement of coming back, and having pretty solid writing every week really made an impact.

Also, watching the writers and artists who came from the two Eternals, they're pretty much who you're getting with DC these days. Whenever I see their names, I think, "Hey, I remember their Eternal issue."

I personally could do without Bloom. He didn't have much to say that other villains hadn't said before. I mostly just loved Gordon in Superheavy.

Eternal kind of illustrates the point about why someone like Denny O'Neill is needed to run any weekly saga; there was a lot of good stuff there, especially at the start, but the ending sequence was in desperate need of some strict editorial control, and a better ending. NML and Knightfall both wound up having better pacing leading to their final battles, and botha managed to more effectively juggle launching new characters. Azrael and Cass Cain got off to a better start than Blue Bird by quite a bit, and it's not like the former two didn't have some issues with their launches as well.

The ending sequence was, indeed, the biggest weakness of Eternal. The final issue was excellent, but the actual reveals were underwhelming and poorly structured (setup/paid off).

As for character launches - I think I generally agree that the Eternals weren't as good as NML or Knightfall - Bane and Azrael have massive impacts on the history of Batman, the former more I would say, and Cass and the launching of Rucka and Brubaker's runs on Batman were the big accomplishment of NML - all worthy accomplishments. Harper - I kinda feel that her fizzle in Eternal 2 was a foregone conclusion since they brought back Steph and Cass as well as trying to launch Harper in the Eternals, and Steph and Cass are just better characters. I'm still bummed that Julia didn't get a better launch from the first Eternal - but Snyder monopolized her so much I'm not that surprised.

This is a random question but has Bruce ever beaten Bane in combat? I heard of a story called Legacy but I've never read it. I know it has something to do with Bane though.

I Am Bane?

[darkseidpwns]

In modern times, you could compare Knightfall a little more to Dick's time as Batman rather than to something like Eternal.

Well that's pretty much what I was saying.

[AzraelOnline]

Take a read at these interviews with Dennis O'Neal. I agree with those who said the new writers just don't work like a writer/editor like O'Neal and his team did back in the 80's and 90's. Reading how meticulously planned out everything was, how everyone was on the same page is what seems like isn't happening now
93 Interview with O'Neal
Another 93 interview with O'Neal
And another one...

[Deffinition]

Wow, great discussion guys, even with the negatives there is still alot to take from Knightfall, Knightsquest on the other hand.....that review comes next week

[zep81]

Really good review and conversation here. I always enjoy reading about Knightfall and people's thoughts. I've just read Sword of Azrael and I'm starting the Knightfall Omnibus soon. Looking forward to it.

[AzraelOnline]

Yes, once or even twice in Legacy (& its epilogue Batman: Bane) is the first that happens. I think in NML he maybe beats him there (could be wrong). Some other more recent times maybe I haven't read, and just recently in Tom King's Batman run.

In No Man's land that was Azrael. It sort of continues from Angel & Bane from his solo series and then moves into it. Azrael gets beat on Santa Prisca, gets injected with Venom, hides out and kicks it, then goes after Bane. He brings him back in a helicopter, Bane escapes, then he tracks him down, beats him and brings him back in again.
Pretty sure Bruce him him in Kings run. Azrael beat him in Batman and Robin Eternal.

[darkseidpwns]

Bruce defeated him in Legacy, then in Tomasi's Arkham War and finally in I am Bane. He also defeated him in Batwoman but I try to forget that. But Bane also beat him in Finch's TDK and cheap shotted him unconscious in Gotham Underground.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

Eh, maybe a semantical point. I disagree. DC treated them more like events, with checklists and numbering and all, all built around some shocking development to Batman's world (which IMHO New 52 did not do, wasn't built around Batman breaking his back or dying or killing Joker, New 52 was built on events outside of Batman's orbit (that you didn't even know happened until Rebirth), it was a reboot more than anything).

He means the Dickbats, Inc. era.

The new status quo of Dick being Batman, and all the different Batbooks lived in that post-Omega Sanction landscape.

[sunofdarkchild]

In the 90s events had much greater impact. The effects of stories like Knightfall and the Death of Superman lasted years. Nowadays it seems like events are practically throwaway everyday occurrences even in-universe. Death of the family was immediately overshadowed by Damian's death. Eternal was a 52 issue year-long event had Gotham largely destroyed, and then they immediately went into the next Gotham-destroying event Endgame and made it so that Eternal didn't matter at all outside of Catwoman.

[darkseidpwns]

And then the writer of Eternal ignored what Catwoman did with that very set up.

[millernumber1]

And then the writer of Eternal ignored what Catwoman did with that very set up.

Ya. I've said it before: Snyder just doesn't play well with others.

[kevink31593]

Batman: The Animated Series made me a Batman fan back when it first aired in 1992, when I was 10. But it was Knightfall that got me hooked on collecting the comics. I turned 11 in the summer of 1993.

I remember seeing Batman 491 (the final Knightfall prelude issue, in which the Arkham breakout occurred) on the rack at the grocery store on a shopping trip with my family. From there on I picked up each new chapter of Knightfall on my family's weekly grocery shopping trips. We went on vacation after part 9 came out, and I missed the next few chapters (10-14).

I remember being upset that I missed part of the story. This was when a friend of mine introduced me to the concept of comic book stores! My Dad took me to my local comic shop (which went out of business a couple years later, but after that I found another local shop which I still visit to this day). At that point, they already had copies of Knightfall parts 10-12 up on the wall behind the counter, and they were asking about 10.00 per copy. I remember telling my Dad “I can’t afford those!” The guy behind the counter heard me, and he sold them to me for “half price”, only 5.00 per copy. (Remember this was when comics cost 1.25 per issue). Did I still get ripped off? All I remember is that at the time, I walked out of that store a very happy kid.

When Batman 500, the final part of Knightfall was out, I remember laying all of the Knightfall issues out on my bed in order, I sat behind my bed, and my Mom took a picture. She’s still got a copy of that picture in an old photo album.

When Knightquest started, my 11 year old self really felt like this was the new status quo for the Batman comics, and Jean Paul would permanently be the new Batman. These comics still had the Knightquest banner at the top, but they were not numbered parts, and each title started telling its own stores instead of being in “crossover mode”. I really enjoyed the ride at the time. I don’t think I knew KnightsEnd was coming until maybe the month before it started, though by that time I had figured out that Jean Paul wouldn’t last forever, as he had slowly started losing his mind and control.

KnightsEnd went by quick in 2 months and it was a satisfying conclusion to the entire saga. And here I am 23 years later, still collecting comics!

[JBatmanFan05]

In No Man's land that was Azrael. It sort of continues from Angel & Bane from his solo series and then moves into it. Azrael gets beat on Santa Prisca, gets injected with Venom, hides out and kicks it, then goes after Bane. He brings him back in a helicopter, Bane escapes, then he tracks him down, beats him and brings him back in again.
Pretty sure Bruce him him in Kings run. Azrael beat him in Batman and Robin Eternal.

Yea, I know the Azrael one, great story. It is the first story (the prelude) in my Cataclysm thru NML bind. But Bane shows up late in NML to help Lex, and I can't recall if Bruce fights Bane there one and one in any significant way. Something makes Bane leave NML. I looked it up and Bruce pays Bane to leave NML. So maybe no big or conclusive one on one.

[Scott Taylor]

Eternal was a 52 issue year-long event had Gotham largely destroyed, and then they immediately went into the next Gotham-destroying event Endgame and made it so that Eternal didn't matter at all outside of Catwoman.

Pretty much. And it was pretty easy to see how meaningless Eternal would be in the grand scheme of things after just the first few issues.

Totally unlike the feel of KF or NML, which even today read like really significant events and are well worth reading. I truly doubt people are going to look back fondly on Eternal and have nostalgia for it in 24 years time.