Would Riri Williams/Iron Heart Be Better As A Villain?

[MarvelMaster616]

I have a feeling that this is going to be a controversial post. I really don't want to start a discussion about identity politics or race or something like that. CBR does not need that sort of thing. It's not good for this message board or the comic book community as a whole.

That said, I think this is a question worth asking. Recently, I saw this video from Diversity & Comics, a YouTube channel that often reviews comics, but tends to whine a lot about identity politics. I usually don't agree with his reviews, but then I saw this video arguing that Riri Williams works better as a villain rather than a hero. And honestly, I think he's right.

Now, I've got nothing against Riri as a character. I'm glad Marvel is rolling the dice, creating new characters for new roles. Bendis has, historically, been really good at writing teenage characters. However, I personally find Riri to be boring and unlikable. She seems to have this pathological, self-centered need to be relevant in a way that just doesn't seem that heroic. She's not nearly as endearing as Gabby, Nadia Pym, or Kamala Khan. I'm not saying it's too late for her to become that endearing, but I think if Marvel really wanted to make her interesting, then making her a villain would be a good way to do that.

Marvel has made a considerable effort with respect to crafting female heroes. That's all well and good, but what about female villains? I think they need to be part of the equation too. Having only men or male figures be villains just creates this unequal dynamic that becomes predictable and bland. Sending Riri down the villain's path could really mix things up. She could become what Dr. Doom once was, but younger and with less baggage.

When you think about it, Riri does have a bit more in common with Dr. Doom, personality wise. She's very smart. She knows she's smart. She's basically capable of doing anything. She gets bored easily and makes a lot of issues about herself. She has an ago, but not in the same way Tony Stark does.

Also, I think it's inevitable that at some point, Tony Stark will return to become Iron Man again. He's not even dead. He's just in a coma. He will come back. It's only a matter of time. After that, though, what happens with Riri? I think she has the potential to be Dr. Doom for a new generation. I think being a villain would make her character and her story more interesting.

That's just my opinion, though. I have a feeling a lot of people disagree with me on this. Again, I don't want to turn this into another discussion about identity politics and diversity. This is just an idea I think is worth sharing and discussing. Riri Williams clearly has a future at Marvel. But it's not yet clear just what that future is and I think her future as a villain is more promising.

[Drops Of Venus]

I don't know... I feel like to do this sort of thing RIGHT NOW would require a complete 180 turn on the character and I'm not sure if it would work. People already accuse Bendis of trying too hard with Riri, can you imagine the fan reaction if he, all of a sudden, tried to push her as ''the new Doctor Doom''? I feel like this could do more harm than good to the character. I think she's fine the way she is right now. A teen version of Iron Man was bound to happen at some point in the current generation of legacy heroes, and since Iron Lad wasn't exactly the best option, I understand why they felt the need to create Riri. The fact that she was female and black was just a plus because of their diversity push. Personally, from what I've read from her book, I've liked it. She is not the kind of character I'd go crazy about, but I'm more than fine with her existence as it is.

[MarvelMaster616]

I don't know... I feel like to do this sort of thing RIGHT NOW would require a complete 180 turn on the character and I'm not sure if it would work. People already accuse Bendis of trying too hard with Riri, can you imagine the fan reaction if he, all of a sudden, tried to push her as ''the new Doctor Doom''? I feel like this could do more harm than good to the character. I think she's fine the way she is right now. A teen version of Iron Man was bound to happen at some point in the current generation of legacy heroes, and since Iron Lad wasn't exactly the best option, I understand why they felt the need to create Riri. The fact that she was female and black was just a plus because of their diversity push. Personally, from what I've read from her book, I've liked it. She is not the kind of character I'd go crazy about, but I'm more than fine with her existence as it is.

I don't disagree with some of the accusations levied against Bendis. I think he is trying too hard to make Riri this great character, but is going too far, so much so that she's dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. Everything comes too easy for her. She didn't spend years, developing a relationship with Iron Man or Tony Stark to set herself up to take over. Unlike Jane Foster, who had a history with Thor, she just kind of came from nowhere and it's hard to really accept her as someone who deserves that title.

I think by making her the new Dr. Doom, that would definitely get more attention and of the good kind. It would be a bold chance to take a new character in a different direction. Besides, I think Moon Girl has kind of already taken on the role of Riri and she's a lot more likable/adorable. With so many heroes fighting heroes in recent years, Marvel needs new villains and Riri would be perfect. In a recent issue, she basically goaded her teacher into saying she couldn't do what she set her mind out to do. She needed someone to doubt her and had to basically force it. That's not something a hero does. That's what villains like Dr. Doom often do. Sure, she's had her share of family tragedy, but so has Dr. Doom. So have most villains. And I think Riri's losses give her more in common with Dr. Doom than Peter Parker.

The fact that Riri isn't the kind of character that makes fans forget about Tony Stark is a sign that, as a hero, her potential is limited. She's basically being tied to an established hero that's bound to come back at some point. Unlike War Machine, though, she really doesn't do much to set herself apart. I think in the grand scheme of things, she's just too boring as a hero and doesn't have Moon Girl's cuteness factor to fall back on. That's not good for her in the long run. Becoming a villain, though, opens all sorts of new doors. It would be a different story, one far different than any other legacy character Marvel has attempted.

There's even a precedent from DC. They turned Jason Todd from a hero into a villain/anti-hero with the Red Hood. I think Riri could follow a similar path and that would be better for her character in the long run. As it stands now, I think Riri is just too bland and boring. I know Marvel wants to push her as part of their diversity effort, but that won't work if she's not compelling.

[Digifiend]

Have you read the new Spectacular Spider-Man? Peter finds a Stark phone that has somehow been hacked when it shouldn't have been possible. He tried to track down similar phones and only locates one - which had been used at MIT and is now in Chicago... he goes after it, assuming it belonged to a villain. Knocks on the door. And Ironheart answers in full armor! So yeah, Zdarsky seems to be using her as an antagonist. The issue actually ends there - the next and last scene shows Johnny Storm waiting for Peter and then someone shows up setting up a cliffhanger.

[Kintor]

Making Riri a villain? Interesting notion, not entirely without precedent.

The best example of this being done right is actually from DC in the 90s, when they had Azrael replace Batman for a time. At the time Azrael's extreme methods didn't sit well with many Batman fans and after a couple years Bruce Wayne regained the cowl. In this case DC realised they made a mistake and worked correct it, while sill respecting the story by acknowledging that Azrael worked best a foil to Bruce Wayne, a Batman without restraint. (Regardless, I still love Azrael's Batman costume; it's just so epically 90s.)

Of course, Azrael is a very different character to Riri, since he was originally written as a villain/anti-hero before becoming Batman. Compared to Riri, who is being portrayed as a sympathetic character and a relative paragon of virtue in the Marvel universe. Even if recent issues and the haphazard development of character, reveal some potentially villainous personality traits. It'd take guts to remake Riri into a villain but it might just work, to salvage what has been one of Marvel's most heavily promoted characters in recent memory.

[anyajenkins]

Meh, let dr. Doom be the new dr. Doom. Stop taking perfectly good Gillian's and trying to them 'heros/anti-heroes'

[Sighphi]

it is funny that the only reason she is making suits is because she needed some one to tell her she cant do something.

So the story could be that some one travels back in time and replaces the teacher and have the teacher say, "You will never be like Doctor Doom!"

And then Riri shows up in Latveria at 11 asking to become Doom's intern.

[Prof. Warren]

Making Riri a villain is not a completely uninteresting way to go. That said, I don't think it would be the right move. Having her inadvertently make some critical mistakes due to her optimism, naivete and inexperience and have those mistakes put her at odds with the rest of the hero community, maybe, but given what we know of her personality, going full villain would be a hard turn to believe in.

And claiming that she's "not as endearing" as Gabby, Nadia, or Kamala is just personal perspective. Others may find her every bit as endearing, if not more so.

[Frontier]

I think we already have an evil version of Riri. Anybody remember Nightshade (who will also be turning up in the upcoming Black Panther movie)?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Tony is a futurist so having him mentor Riri only for her to go down a dark path would have been a good arc to read.

I think you can have other characters point out the negative concesquences of her actions/desires or even have her screw up and deal with the consequences.

She doesn't need to be a full villian but giving her a dark side that she is fighting against is better.

Think like Dr Who, he is a heroic character but he has his share of issues.

[MarvelMaster616]

Making Riri a villain is not a completely uninteresting way to go. That said, I don't think it would be the right move. Having her inadvertently make some critical mistakes due to her optimism, naivete and inexperience and have those mistakes put her at odds with the rest of the hero community, maybe, but given what we know of her personality, going full villain would be a hard turn to believe in.

And claiming that she's "not as endearing" as Gabby, Nadia, or Kamala is just personal perspective. Others may find her every bit as endearing, if not more so.

I'm not saying making her a villain is a right or wrong move. But I think that her current path is kind of limited. She (and I'd also put America Chavez in this category) is somewhat at the mercy of Marvel's desire to be careful with diversity. Look up something called the Galbrush Paradox to see what I mean. Right now, Marvel is kind of in a tough bind with these characters. If Riri wasn't a minority, then they could get away with making her suffer or falter. But since she isn't, they really can't. If they do, then there will likely be this huge outcry on social media and in the news. Suddenly, Marvel will be branded as both sexist and racist if they dare do anything to hint that Riri or America Chavez aren't perfect pillars of heroism and justice. Just look at the sheer outrage Marvel got when J. Scott Campbell did that variant cover of her. They just don't have any flexibility with this character. In the long run, that's just not viable. That's downright boring. At some point, you can just assume that anything Riri faces, she'll overcome with relative ease and never have to undergo any personal strain for it.

Compare this with someone like Kamala, who disavowed her idol and drove away her closest friend. The fact Marvel let that happen is pretty remarkable in that it helps humanize Kamala. The fact they made Gabby part of X-23's family helped create a more personal dynamic that made her easy to care about. Riri has no connection to Tony Stark, the Avengers, or anybody. She was just wedged in there rather than have her develop alongside Tony, like X-23 did for years while Logan was still alive.

As a hero, I think Riri is flat and boring. On top of that, Marvel can't do anything with her because they'll be branded as sexist and racist. Making her a villain changes the script. I think as a hero, Riri can be a fairly generic placeholder until Tony comes back. But as a villain, she has the potential to be a far more complex character.

[Unspeakable Evil]

No because who would she even be a villain for?

[Techno_Knight]

As a sidekick for Tony she doesn't make sense due to his character and philosophy. As a villain, she's a less bombastic Zeke Stane. Just... dunno, cut her ties with Tony (he's AI Tony, he's not even real Tony) and give her a solo or something. I'm not saying she should be Jason Todd'd, just stop being shoved in the Iron Man mythos and develop as her own character. Give her some reinvented D/Z-List villains, build a supporting cast, and you're off to a good start.

[penthotal]

I'm not saying making her a villain is a right or wrong move. But I think that her current path is kind of limited. She (and I'd also put America Chavez in this category) is somewhat at the mercy of Marvel's desire to be careful with diversity. Look up something called the Galbrush Paradox to see what I mean. Right now, Marvel is kind of in a tough bind with these characters. If Riri wasn't a minority, then they could get away with making her suffer or falter. But since she isn't, they really can't. If they do, then there will likely be this huge outcry on social media and in the news. Suddenly, Marvel will be branded as both sexist and racist if they dare do anything to hint that Riri or America Chavez aren't perfect pillars of heroism and justice.

Have you ever read the book? In the actual stories Riri fails repeatedly, she is inexperienced, often doesn't know how to deal with the situations she has to face, other people have to help her and she has even been KOed by Whiplash. It's really a story about a very smart teenager experimenting and making mistakes, not about a perfect character that can never do wrong.

[ZuLuLu]

it is funny that the only reason she is making suits is because she needed some one to tell her she cant do something.

So the story could be that some one travels back in time and replaces the teacher and have the teacher say, "You will never be like Doctor Doom!"

And then Riri shows up in Latveria at 11 asking to become Doom's intern.

That was not her reasoning for making the suit, she built the suit and wanted to become a hero because her best friend and and father was killed, that was shown in the first issue.

She developed a particular focus on Tony Stark was because she wanted her teacher to tell her she couldn't do something because she wanted to so she could use the negativity as motivation the way her actual childhood hero Mae Carol Jemison did, and her teacher indulged her and picked Tony Stark.

As for Riri having a dark side that have also been addressed, psychologist told her parents that she would need special attention because children with her capabilities if not socialized and given the right emotional support could "become the next Dr,Doom" as she said. This is why her step father told her he loved her all the time.

So it is interesting that Bendis is having both Tony and Doom have influence in her development.