Eleven Years Later, thoughts on the film SUPERMAN RETURNS

[DochaDocha]

Also, Returns' budget is not entirely accurate. I think some of the production cost is from previous failed Superman movie productions. Its financial success is somewhat understated because of false liabilities associated to it.

I also hate Returns so I don't like defending it, but just trying to be accurate.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I think Singer could have redeemed himself with a SR sequel, fixing the problems of the first one (too much nostalgia and lack of action).

[Adekis]

I think Singer could have redeemed himself with a SR sequel, fixing the problems of the first one (too much nostalgia and lack of action).

I agree wholeheartedly. His plan for a sequel was apparently going to involve Brainiac, and I've always sort of felt like he should have gone that route the first time around.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I agree wholeheartedly. His plan for a sequel was apparently going to involve Brainiac, and I've always sort of felt like he should have gone that route the first time around.

I recall reading somewhere the plan for the scrapped SR sequel. It seemed cool despite a controversial part (*cough* Superman killing Jason *cough*).

[Buried Alien]

I remember an acquaintance, who wasn't a Superman or comics fan, saying about the movie (which he saw) that it was basically two hours of Superman flying...and flying...and flying...and flying some more! I had to agree, and while it was thrilling enough to just see him fly back in 1978, by 2006, most people wanted more out of a Superman movie than two hours of Superman flying.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[manofsteel1979]

I remember an acquaintance, who wasn't a Superman or comics fan, saying about the movie (which he saw) that it was basically two hours of Superman flying...and flying...and flying...and flying some more! I had to agree, and while it was thrilling enough to just see him fly back in 1978, but 2006, most people wanted more out of a Superman movie than two hours of Superman flying.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Funny enough, I've heard the same complaint.

It's a shame Returns failed, Because I do think Singer would have given us a great sequel. Although, I've enjoyed the Snyder movies, I would have gladly accepted a SR sequel. In fact I was initially upset when it was officially scuttled for MOS. Although I think it all worked out like it was supposed to.

[Adekis]

I recall reading somewhere the plan for the scrapped SR sequel. It seemed cool despite a controversial part (*cough* Superman killing Jason *cough*).

Whaaaat? I officially take back my vote of confidence in Bryan Singer. I never heard that; that's totally bananas!

[manofsteel1979]

Whaaaat? I officially take back my vote of confidence in Bryan Singer. I never heard that; that's totally bananas!

Apparently, Jason gets possessed by Brainiac in the finale, he ages to an adult and fights Superman . It's unclear whether Supes was supposed to kill Jason or Jason ends up gaining control long enough to do himself in, but In the supposed initial script treatment Jason is killed off.

I'm sure that may have changed when the film actually was made, but imagine if it didn't? It would have made all the " man of Murder" screeching after MOS sounds restrained by comparison.

[Adekis]

Apparently, Jason gets possessed by Brainiac in the finale, he ages to an adult and fights Superman . It's unclear whether Supes was supposed to kill Jason or Jason ends up gaining control long enough to do himself in, but In the supposed initial script treatment Jason is killed off.

I'm sure that may have changed when the film actually was made, but imagine if it didn't? It would have made all the " man of Murder" screeching after MOS sounds restrained by comparison.

Actually, it vaguely reminds me of the Bomb short made to promote Gods and Monsters, where Superman kills this poor innocent baby Brainiac. Still, adds another few layers of Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot when it's actually "our" Superman, and killing his own son to boot. Not allowed, man. I've always defended Superman killing Zod, Doomsday or various other monsters, but killing a kid, even a dangerous kid or a possessed kid... Superman's not Miracleman, don't write him into that corner! Shouldn't be too hard to avoid!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As much as I'm inclined to agree in principle, you can't deny that much like deciding to quit out of self-doubt, this comes from the Superman mythos in a pretty obvious way. I might not like it, but we gotta admit that Singer didn't just make it up.

Attachment 58943

Also, actually a pretty decent comic.

Superman left Earth without saying goodbye Lois in Exile? Really? My memory of this storyline is fuzzy, but didn't he leave because he was being mentally manipulated by Brainiac into thinking he was a threat to humanity? Wasn't this also prior to Lois & Clark even becoming romantically involved?

Had Superman Returns included any of this, it might have worked. In fact, in the original cut, it was revealed that Luthor had manipulated Superman into leaving by faking evidence that survivors of Krypton might exist. The idea of Superman leaving Earth, only to return years later to find Lois as the mother of his young son and engaged to another man might have worked, but the premise that he'd leave without even telling Lois that he was either going or why makes no sense whatsoever.

[Adekis]

Superman left Earth without saying goodbye Lois in Exile? Really? My memory of this storyline is fuzzy, but didn't he leave because he was being mentally manipulated by Brainiac into thinking he was a threat to humanity? Wasn't this also prior to Lois & Clark even becoming romantically involved?

Had Superman Returns included any of this, it might have worked. In fact, in the original cut, it was revealed that Luthor had manipulated Superman into leaving by faking evidence that survivors of Krypton might exist. The idea of Superman leaving Earth, only to return years later to find Lois as the mother of his young son and engaged to another man might have worked, but the premise that he'd leave without even telling Lois that he was either going or why makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't remember that Brainiac thing. The way I remember it, Clark did such a bad job internalizing his guilt over the messy way he executed General Zod, Zaora and Quex-Ul that he had a schizophrenic break and started masquerading as Gangbuster to fight crime in a marginally more violent and intimidating way than he usually did as Superman, and after he realized that, he decided that he was dangerous. They redid a version of it in Adventures of Superman with Gangbuster replaced by "Demolisher", and removing the schizophrenic break. It's possible that Vril Dox caused the schizophrenic break and I forgot that, but honestly? Superman is a character who I like to see fight crime in a marginally violent and intimidating way, and he's a character who I regard as not only completely sane, but as immune to human mental health frailty as he is to physical injury. That doesn't mean he can't doubt himself or feel sad or whatever, just that he's never going to actually suffer from mental illness like schizophrenia any more than he's going to suffer from diabetes. As a result, to me it seems like Exile is fundamentally based in a faulty understanding of Superman as firstly a character susceptible to a schizophrenic break (even if caused by Brainiac) and secondly a character who shouldn't kick too much ass, even if he still doesn't kill muggle criminals. I reject both premises.

By extension then, I think a Superman who exiles himself specifically because he's trying to see if there's any other survivors of Krypton (and Luthor's manipulation excluded or not, I think it's implicitly clear that that's why) is pretty in tune with his character. Also, I accept Clark's awkward premise that maybe Superman was afraid that if he tried to say goodbye, he wouldn't have been able to do it, like Siddhartha Gautama. In Superman Returns, Kal's a pretty distant figure who seems unflappable only because he's constantly on-guard, whereas the more nervous Clark is his more honest (though not truer) self, so when Clark tries to say a reason why Superman does something in that context, I believe him.

[Clark_Kent]

I think his leaving Earth in SR might have gone over better with people if they hadn't cut the scene where he discovers Krypton's remains. He arrives there in his ship, investigates these massive chunks of Krypton, and then falls ill of all the K-radiation & must make an escape.




It even suggested (perhaps in the novelization?) that surviving such a large (planet-sized) exposure helped him to develop a small bit of resistance to Kryptonite, in the way that we develop anti-bodies to fend off the effects of random viruses & bugs. This explains how he was able to tough it out in the climax to lift an island of the stuff.

Of course, none of this stuff made it into the actual film, so it's a moot point. But I do think this stuff, along with Lex's dialogue about tricking him into going to space, would have at least fixed the issue with Superman leaving. Either way, the film would still be pretty average & forgettable, imo. It'd still be the super-powered rom-com (without the Com) that Singer wanted, and it would still be about 2 terrible people called Superman & Lois Lane. Cyclops was a better man in this than Superman, and that's a shame.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Whaaaat? I officially take back my vote of confidence in Bryan Singer. I never heard that; that's totally bananas!

C'mon, no one liked the kid. Singer had to "fix" the kid problem somehow.

Btw, here's the plot (God bless Google)...

Superman: The Man of Steel

TMS started just a few years after the incidents that we saw in Superman Returns. Kal-El is doing what Superman does best, Lois Lane is raising her kid Jason, who of course is Superman's child and the world is getting use to having Superman back.

Now there are storyline threads that go back to Superman Returns, one is the on going plot of Superman's original reason of going back to Krypton. He has always wondered if he truly is the last Son of Krypton.

Remember new Krypton that Lex created with crystals he stole from the Fortress of Solitude and Kryptonite that Supes launched into to space that nearly killed him?

So new Krypton continues to grow in space and has become an almost perfect sphere. It is now the size of a small moon.

Besides giving Humans something to admire at night, Earth new satellite has also brought some unexpected attention from a galaxy far, far away.

A massive spaceship arrives Earth's orbit, Superman flys up to meet the spacecraft and we are introduced to our out of this world visitor.

Superman quickly finds out that our visitor is also a Kryptonian survivor who has been traveling the known galaxies and was able to detect Kryptonian technology thanks to our new green/black satellite that has started to orbit the Earth.

Superman finally has found a Kryptonian buddy and starts showing him around the planet, a planet full of problems, disease, famine, crime and nations at war with each other.

Our new Kryptonian friend asks Superman why, with all his power, is he not changing the world for the better. Why is he not getting rid of famine, disease and war? Of course fans know that Superman has always been told, or better said instructed, not to interfere with Earth's development.


Superman explains that he is not allowed to interfere but his Krypto buddy tells him that with their powers they are required to "interfere," Superman disagrees.

Krypto buddy decides to take charge and starts "interfering" from day one. One of the first things that he does is get involved in a political mess that is heating up between two third world nations.

War breaks out between these two nations but before any real battle breaks our Krypto buddy interferes and lays waste to these two Armies.

He declares to the world that he will not allow anymore wars and/or the destruction of our planet. He is declaring a "War Free" planet and for those who disagree he will have to deal with them.

The major nations of the planet applaud his actions and all agree to an immediate worldwide peace. In return he promises to share technology, fight hunger, famine and disease.

The population of the world rejoices and any small pockets of resistance is quickly squashed by Krypto buddy or even the world governments.

Superman has now become a pariah, the way the world sees it, he has been here for years and had kept technology that could have saved many of the worlds problems.

Superman starts getting a bit suspicious of Krypto buddy and decides to go talk to him. He goes to his spaceship and has a revelation. This massive ship is full of hundreds if not thousands of identical bodies aboard, yep, clones of Krypto buddy, in stasis.

So Superman digs a bit more inside the "computer" system, which is familiar to him since it's Kryptonian technology just like the Fortress of Solitude.

Superman finds out that Krypto buddy is actually an artificial intelligence from Krypton that has evolved since the destruction of their world.

He escaped Krypton just like Kal-El did and his real name is Brainiac. He has been going from planet to planet, taking their technology, helping these worlds reach a relative perfection and then he destroys them and moves on.

Superman also finds out that he was actually responsible for the destruction of Krypton and tries to warn the leaders of the world but is confronted by Braniac. A massive battle ensues and Superman is about to defeat his foe but right just before Brainiac downloads his conscience into one oh his other clones.

Superman realizes that he must destroy this massive ship along with all the clones aboard. After another massive battle he is able to disable the ship, destroy the clones and the new Braniac but right before the ship is destroyed the Braniac main frame does a local search for another body that he could download in to, it has to be Kryptonian, and he finds another one on Earth, Superman's kid
Jason White.

So Brainiac uses Kryptonian technology and beams/download itself into Jason's body and this causes causes him to age and grow into a full adult but with Brainiac in complete control.

Superman realizes what just happened and rushes to confront his very own son who is now possessed by Brainiac.

Is Jason still there or is it all Brainiac? It's all Braniac and Superman knows what he has to do, he must defeat Brainiac at all costs or the planet and it's inhabitants will be doomed.

It's a battle between two gods but Superman has already been run ragged and beat down pretty bad in his previous battles of the day. Brainiac has the upper hand and Superman is trying to not to do any permanent damage to Jason's body.

Every time Brainiac is defeated in the past he simply tries to download to another clone and leaves that body completely brain dead but with no other bodies left, will Jason survive? The answer in no.

There is a Christ like metaphor here. Superman has to sacrifice his own son to save humanity.

There are still plenty of holes left in this story, we were not privy to all the details but this is the bulk of the info we received.

[Powerboy]

It's against the grain but there were some things about it I really liked. I definitely give them credit for having guts and daring to be innovative with the Superman concept which is a strange thing to say about something that was meant as a continuation of the Reeve Superman.

The idea that Clark and Lois had sex was clearly implied in Superman II, so clearly that Clark's remark about his back hurting got a huge laugh in the theater back in the day. Of course this means he left for Krypton's remains almost immediately after the events of Superman II. I didn't have a problem with his having a child that he didn't know about. I mean, is this the 1950s and the television version of the 1950s at that?

I think most of the real problems would have started had there ever been a sequel. It was inevitable that Perry White's son had to die to ever get Clark and Lois back together again. Likewise, the casting of Superman and Lois was way too young if Superman was supposed to be the Reeve Superman who started his career at 30 years old.

I also found the "Savior" symbolism annoying not in itself but in it's execution. We see Superman orbiting the planet using his super hearing and he specifically states to Lois that the world is crying out for a savior. So he must hear the cries of starving children and all the other cries of anguish and injustice and cruelty in the world and ignores them until he hears what's important: a two-bit robbery where money is being stolen. Well, thank goodness Saviorman has his priorities straight. Yeah, being a supercop is really important by comparison. My point being that if you're going to trivialize the Savior symbolism, just lose it altogether.

Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor represented both the best and worst of the movie. He did a great job of playing a sadistic villain as opposed to Gene Hackman's comedy version. But wasn't this supposed to be a continuation of the Reeve Superman? Yet, dramatically, it has a completely dark modern feel to it up to and including Superman's dark costume and Spacey's Luthor minus the comedy veneer.

I hate it when people use this to "prove" that something more in the Reeve style won't work anymore because "They tried it in Superman Returns and it didn't work". No they didn't. Tonally, it was vastly different and, ironically, the parts most people respond to positively are the few parts that really did feel like the older versions of Superman.

Bottom line: despite my criticisms, I liked a lot of it but it was it's own dead end. There is almost nowhere it could have gone that wouldn't have been darker still and left people even more dissatisfied.

[Adekis]

I hate it when people use this to "prove" that something more in the Reeve style won't work anymore because "They tried it in Superman Returns and it didn't work". No they didn't. Tonally, it was vastly different and, ironically, the parts most people respond to positively are the few parts that really did feel like the older versions of Superman.

Bottom line: despite my criticisms, I liked a lot of it but it was it's own dead end. There is almost nowhere it could have gone that wouldn't have been darker still and left people even more dissatisfied.

I think that's basically true. The Reeve movies were charming as heck, and they live and die on their own faults. I happen to think they die more than they live, but none of that is on Returns, which is sort of a weepy tribute rather than an accurate representation of Donner's films.

I like Superman Returns for what it is too, as you said, despite its failings, but I can't agree enough that it's "its own dead end".

C'mon, no one liked the kid. Singer had to "fix" the kid problem somehow.

The best way to "fix" the problem is to soft-reboot the kind into having a likable personality. It's not hard, you've got another few years in gap between the first and second movie, you could even re-cast him if you wanted; don't just kill the boy off! That's absolutely awful.

Going over this outline step by step:

[Superman] has always wondered if he truly is the last Son of Krypton.

Remember new Krypton that Lex created with crystals he stole from the Fortress of Solitude and Kryptonite that Supes launched into to space that nearly killed him?

So new Krypton continues to grow in space and has become an almost perfect sphere. It is now the size of a small moon.

What? I thought he chucked it further away than that. I'm sure this won't interfere with Earth's gravity and cause a massive cataclysm not unlike Krypton's own destruction! No, that could never happen.

[quote]A massive spaceship arrives Earth's orbit, Superman flys up to meet the spacecraft and we are introduced to our out of this world visitor.

Superman quickly finds out that our visitor is also a Kryptonian survivor who has been traveling the known galaxies and was able to detect Kryptonian technology thanks to our new green/black satellite that has started to orbit the Earth.[quote] Right, right, like Zod from Man of Steel meets Bar-El and Lilo from All-Star. I can dig it.

Superman finally has found a Kryptonian buddy and starts showing him around the planet, a planet full of problems, disease, famine, crime and nations at war with each other.

Our new Kryptonian friend asks Superman why, with all his power, is he not changing the world for the better. Why is he not getting rid of famine, disease and war? Of course fans know that Superman has always been told, or better said instructed, not to interfere with Earth's development.

My fuckin' ass he has!



Superman was ending wars as early as Action Comics # 2! If he hasn't cured disease, it's because he can't, despite trying, and as for famine, he's tried to help on that front too! (Admittedly, he should probably put more effort into helping strengthen and create infrastructures designed for that cause than he actually does, but, er...) Not to mention, what, doesn't Bryan Singer consider alerting human civilization to the existence of alien civilizations, flying around and preventing disasters, even in as uncontroversial and apolitical a way as possible, to be "interference"? Because if he doesn't regard what even the most moderate Superman does as "interference", it's because he's totally wrong, and possibly misunderstands what the word means. What a load of crap!

Superman explains that he is not allowed to interfere but his Krypto buddy tells him that with their powers they are required to "interfere," Superman disagrees.

Krypto buddy decides to take charge and starts "interfering" from day one. One of the first things that he does is get involved in a political mess that is heating up between two third world nations.

Like the war in San Monte in Action Comics # 2, maybe?

War breaks out between these two nations but before any real battle breaks our Krypto buddy interferes and lays waste to these two Armies.

He declares to the world that he will not allow anymore wars and/or the destruction of our planet. He is declaring a "War Free" planet and for those who disagree he will have to deal with them.

Okay, so maybe a little less "Siegel's Superman" and a little more "Moore/Gaiman's Marvelman". Still a fair villain treatment, almost inevitable, really.

The major nations of the planet applaud his actions and all agree to an immediate worldwide peace. In return he promises to share technology, fight hunger, famine and disease.

I believe no part of that first sentence, are you kidding me?

The population of the world rejoices and any small pockets of resistance is quickly squashed by Krypto buddy or even the world governments.

Superman has now become a pariah, the way the world sees it, he has been here for years and had kept technology that could have saved many of the worlds problems.

Superman starts getting a bit suspicious of Krypto buddy and decides to go talk to him.

Oh, you think there might be something suspicious about the new dictator of the world, do you? Maybe something's a little bit off about this guy? Gee, I wonder what tipped you off!

As for the hoarded technology, Luthor made a similar point in Superman Returns, where he compares himself to Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, as he plans to steal K-tech from Superman and share it with the world- "And," he added, "I want my cut." As with Bane in Rises, the question of whether he's right is sidestepped by the fact that he's lying, and sure enough when he gets K-tech, he just uses it for another stupid real-estate scheme (who came up with that crap?), but honestly, if he'd kept to his original mandate instead of taking all the power for himself, I'd agree with him.

"Gods are selfish beings who fly around in little red capes and don't share their power with mankind." That doesn't apply to the DCEU Superman, who has S.T.A.R. Labs working on the ship he crashed into Metropolis, studying it to understand it better. There's no other source of K-tech in his world and S.T.A.R. appears to work with or for the government, so in a very real way, he's nationalized what's left of Krypton's technology! By contrast, in Returns Superman has a fortress full of all kinds of xenotech goodies. Could he end world hunger? If so, he should, and "Krypto Buddy" and his supporters in positions of power all over the world are absolutely right to be mad at Superman. There's a middle ground between taking over the world and maximizing the positive effects of your xenotech. This version of Superman has mistakenly blown off his ability to, as Luthor says in Justice League: Gods and Monsters, "be a real hero" by circulating Kryptonian knowledge. The only excuse would be if Kryptonian tech was so dangerous that there was no safe way to use it, but that doesn't seem to be the case!
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