Marvel's Female Heroes And The Galbrush Paradox

[MarvelMaster616]

I'm not "trying to get in." I make a living writing fiction. I'm speaking from experience and observation, not theory.

Your "thought experiment" is ludicrous. I'm not saying that to be insulting (though you may find it so).

Write human beings. Make half of them female. Repeat. The end. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about or is lying.

Well then you're definitely ahead of me in that respect. And for that, I congratulate you. That's a difficult position to achieve. I also imagine that your experience in the industry is unique. You may very well have had no issue developing male and female characters in the same way. That doesn't mean it applies to the entire industry.

Also, just calling my thought experiment ludicrous doesn't make it less valid. Why is it ludicrous? What about it is wrong with respect to the larger point I made? I honestly think it's worth discussing and just calling it ludicrous is avoiding that discussion.

Writing human beings sounds like a perfect solution for a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world, though. People react differently to certain characters. If a man had worn Mockingbird's famous "feminist agenda" shirt, would the reaction have been the same? It might have been for you and me, but what about the millions of other people on this world that aren't wired the same?

[Redjack]

Well then you're definitely ahead of me in that respect. And for that, I congratulate you. That's a difficult position to achieve. I also imagine that your experience in the industry is unique. You may very well have had no issue developing male and female characters in the same way. That doesn't mean it applies to the entire industry.

Yeah. We're not talking about the industry (which is vastly more nuanced and complex than you seem to think). We're talking about writing. Check back in a few years after you've broken in and seen how it really works to compare your uniformed conjecture with the factual reality.

Also, just calling my thought experiment ludicrous doesn't make it less valid.

Now we're talking about the industry. Sort of.

Why is it ludicrous?

Because it presumes a basic social parity when it comes to gender. Sort of like asking, "Are Historically Black Colleges racist because they don't court white students?" You create a world of basic parity between genders/classes/ethnicities in order to ask your question but that world doesn't exist. The question draws an artificial parity between its two subjects. IOW: you remove the context in order to create the conditions where your question seems reasonable but, as that context can't be removed, your question makes no sense. Hence, ludicrous.

In reality, very few security forces, police forces, military or paramilitary are composed of or are dominated by women. There are many societal reasons for this spanning thousands of years and obvious to anyone who looks. We can net it down to "habit" and "tradition" for this discussion. Insofar as movies, even super-hero movies try to reflect some of the viewers real reality, we can expect that the gender make-up of the fictional versions of the groups listed will be largely male for the foreseeable future.

We don't need to bother with your "thought experiment" because we have actual facts to refute it before you present it. We just saw, in Wonder Woman, a squad of women with swords and bows decimate a platoon of men armed with machine guns and grenades. No one seems to have an issue with it. Atomic Blond's movie trailer is essentially Charlize Theron beating the living crap out of and/or murdering multiple men who are trying to do the same to her. So far, no outcry. UNDERWORLD. FURY ROAD. RESIDENT EVIL. MR. & MRS. SMITH. MULTIPLE JAMES BOND movies. Multiple MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE movies. BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. FIREFLY. ALIAS (TV). JESSICA JONES (comics and TV). LEGEND OF KORRA. KIM POSSIBLE. LA FEMME NIKITA (Film + TWO TV series). MULTIPLE ANIME series and films. AGENTS OF SHIELD. THE MATRIX. etc. etc. etc. for years. and years. and years.

Your "thought experiment" is ludicrous because, REALITY.

If you're going to talk about this stuff, do yourself and everyone else the courtesy of researching the subject.

What about it is wrong with respect to the larger point I made? I honestly think it's worth discussing and just calling it ludicrous is avoiding that discussion.

what about the millions of other people on this world that aren't wired the same?

That is a non-question because, as I said, your entire premise is faulty and without a real-world foundation. It's nonsensical.

[LOSTie-chan]

As a woman the only thing I want from female characters is the same thing I want from male characters.

I just want them to be interesting.
That's it.

There's no magic formula to writing a female character. You just write.
And I find the fact that people think they need to write a female character in some special way to be correct kind of insulting.

[Redjack]

As a woman the only thing I want from female characters is the same thing I want from male characters.

I just want them to be interesting.
That's it.

There's no magic formula to writing a female character. You just write.
And I find the fact that people think they need to write a female character in some special way to be correct kind of insulting.

correct on all points.

[Star_Jammer]

precisely the point. if you only have a set of stills to work with in your advertising campaign, it's probably a stupid idea to use the one where a man is choking a woman to death. clearly reality agreed.

Well without context, one wouldn't be able to tell that the blue person getting choked was female in the first place.



Unless, y'know, we add the context (that we already know) ourselves, which would include Apocalypse being a bad guy.

[Redjack]

Well without context, one wouldn't be able to tell that the blue person getting choked was female in the first place.



Unless, y'know, we add the context (that we already know) ourselves, which would include Apocalypse being a bad guy.

sorry. that's obviously a woman and the VAST majority of people who saw that image pegged her as such. nice try but, again, REALITY always wins.

[Star_Jammer]

sorry. that's obviously a woman and the VAST majority of people who saw that image pegged her as such. nice try but, again, REALITY always wins.

What makes it so obvious?

And what isn't obvious about the blue-skinned person on the right being evil?

[Redjack]

What makes it so obvious?

And what isn't obvious about the blue-skinned person on the right being evil?

Because human beings can determine gender based on sight, nearly 100% of the time. We're hardwired for it.

Whether either of the people in the picture are "good" or "evil" has no bearing on the image. Zero. Again, reality. You really can't fight it. None of us can.

[The Negative Zone]

Why argue about the X-Men billboard? Its a done issue.

[Redjack]

Why argue about the X-Men billboard? Its a done issue.

apparently some folks didn't get the memo.

[Star_Jammer]

Because human beings can determine gender based on sight, nearly 100% of the time. We're hardwired for it.

Whether either of the people in the picture are "good" or "evil" has no bearing on the image. Zero. Again, reality. You really can't fight it. None of us can.

I wouldn't suggest going to any Anime conventions or trying to navigate the "don't assume my gender" crowd, then.

But come on...answer my question, don't avoid it. What features make the persons gender "obvious"?

And it has bearing on the image. It's not promoting violence against women. Having an evil person choke a woman (or anyone) sends a statement that that is something evil people do, not good ones.

[Redjack]

I wouldn't suggest going to any Anime conventions or trying to navigate the "don't assume my gender" crowd, then.

But come on...answer my question, don't avoid it. What features make the persons gender "obvious"?

And it has bearing on the image. It's not promoting violence against women. Having an evil person choke a woman (or anyone) sends a statement that that is something evil people do, not good ones.

When I "avoid" a question...

well, that's never happened and it never will. You've got your answer. Live with it or don't. Your choice, as always.

Cosplayers make up an unobservably small portion of the human population. What happens in that arena is not relevant outside that arena. All that's relevant is what happened when a MASS of human beings saw that billboard and all saw the same thing, gender wise. They reached different political conclusions, perhaps, but the genders were never in question and I'm not going to pretend they were for you.

I take this stuff very seriously and I'm not jumping through silly hoops.

[Star_Jammer]

When I "avoid" a question...

well, that's never happened and it never will. You've got your answer. Live with it or don't. Your choice, as always.

Cosplayers make up an unobservably small portion of the human population. What happens in that arena is not relevant outside that arena. All that's relevant is what happened when a MASS of human beings saw that billboard and all saw the same thing, gender wise. They reached different political conclusions, perhaps, but the genders were never in question and I'm not going to pretend they were for you.

I take this stuff very seriously and I'm not jumping through silly hoops.

Are you positive the MASS amount of people saw the billboard and saw it with absolutely no context?

And you're right; I couldn't get the genders confused. I have context.

[Tmacaoni]

Honestly, looking at the image I think female. I think the texture of her face gives it away. The hair also tilts her into female territory.

You probably could ask people have no idea about the movie like your parents or friends and they'd probably peg Mystique for female as well.

[Anduinel]

Honestly, looking at the image I think female. I think the texture of her face gives it away. The hair also tilts her into female territory.

You probably could ask people have no idea about the movie like your parents or friends and they'd probably peg Mystique for female as well.

I think it'd also be a matter of how most of us are conditioned to read certain markers as coded female or male. One character is bigger, aggressive, has stronger features, and is heavily armored. The other is smaller, more vulnerable, and in peril. Show that image to any rando on the street, and the majority are going to take the former as male and the latter as female.