Marvel's Female Heroes And The Galbrush Paradox

[ed2962]

Thanks for your insight. I agree that it depends a lot on the character in terms of how the Galbrush Paradox applies, if at all. I don't think it applies very much to characters like X-23 or Wonder Woman. I started this thread because I think it's a more recent phenomenon, seeing comic book characters and female superheroes handled with excessive caution. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "struggle." Perhaps "fail" is a better word. They key component to the Galbrush Paradox is that female characters are given more leeway to succeed over male characters. And if female characters are allowed to fail, then it generates more outrage than a male character would have. It's at a point now where Marvel seems reluctant to let female characters fail too much.

Just think back to Civil War II. As soon as it was announced that the two main sides were represented by Tony Stark and Captain Marvel, did anyone really think that Marvel would let Tony Stark win? Look at the final issue and then reverse the roles. If Carol Danvers had been the one that ended up in a coma, what kind of reaction would that have gotten? A powerful male hero beating a powerful female hero, winning both an argument and a war? I'm pretty sure that would've generated a few nasty hashtags.

That's not to say there aren't outliers. I agree that characters like Jessica Jones and Silk are able to avoid this paradox. One of the reasons I really enjoyed Silk's solo series was that the narrative was never too predictable. If Silk had been a male, it would've been every bit as compelling. To date, she's one of my favorite new female characters of the past five years.

Characters like Riri Williams, America Chavez, and even Captain Marvel to some extent are in a different boat. I read their stories and there's never this sense that they're allowed to fail or falter beyond a certain point. And I think some of that is reluctance on Marvel's part. They saw what happened with that J. Scott Campbell variant of Riri Williams. They know that it doesn't take much to spark a bad wave of PR involving a female character. We can argue just how much of that can be chalked up to the Galbrush Paradox, but even if you don't believe it's real, I think the way Marvel is handling certain female characters is still an issue.

The Scott Campbell controversy is a completely different issue. Had Riri been an adult character as opposed to a teenager, no one would have batted an eye over her style of dress.

Had Carol ended up in a coma, I'm sure her fans wouldn't have been happy. Just like some fans of She-Hulk weren't happy about what happened to her ( and hey, Jen "failed"). But fans of a particular hero being pissed isn't the same thing as social-political outrage.

I'm not sure I think the issue you're seeing ( that Marvel is afraid of having female heroes fail or be flawed due to backlash) is really a thing.

[MarvelMaster616]

The Scott Campbell controversy is a completely different issue. Had Riri been an adult character as opposed to a teenager, no one would have batted an eye over her style of dress.

Had Carol ended up in a coma, I'm sure her fans wouldn't have been happy. Just like some fans of She-Hulk weren't happy about what happened to her ( and hey, Jen "failed"). But fans of a particular hero being pissed isn't the same thing as social-political outrage.

I'm not sure I think the issue you're seeing ( that Marvel is afraid of having female heroes fail or be flawed due to backlash) is really a thing.

Perhaps it's not. I concede I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill here. These are my personal observations and I felt they were worth discussing because it relates to a relevant issue, namely the direction of Marvel's female superheroes. I don't expect everyone to see things how I see them or interpret them as I do. That's just the nature of media.

I want Marvel's female heroes to succeed. I think it's good for the industry and for the culture at large to see female heroes thrive. But I think there are still unique challenges and the Galbrush Paradox is one of them, in my opinion.

[Redjack]

Thanks for your insight. I agree that it depends a lot on the character in terms of how the Galbrush Paradox applies, if at all. I don't think it applies very much to characters like X-23 or Wonder Woman. I started this thread because I think it's a more recent phenomenon, seeing comic book characters and female superheroes handled with excessive caution. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "struggle." Perhaps "fail" is a better word. They key component to the Galbrush Paradox is that female characters are given more leeway to succeed over male characters. And if female characters are allowed to fail, then it generates more outrage than a male character would have. It's at a point now where Marvel seems reluctant to let female characters fail too much.

Just think back to Civil War II. As soon as it was announced that the two main sides were represented by Tony Stark and Captain Marvel, did anyone really think that Marvel would let Tony Stark win? Look at the final issue and then reverse the roles. If Carol Danvers had been the one that ended up in a coma, what kind of reaction would that have gotten? A powerful male hero beating a powerful female hero, winning both an argument and a war? I'm pretty sure that would've generated a few nasty hashtags.

That's not to say there aren't outliers. I agree that characters like Jessica Jones and Silk are able to avoid this paradox. One of the reasons I really enjoyed Silk's solo series was that the narrative was never too predictable. If Silk had been a male, it would've been every bit as compelling. To date, she's one of my favorite new female characters of the past five years.

Characters like Riri Williams, America Chavez, and even Captain Marvel to some extent are in a different boat. I read their stories and there's never this sense that they're allowed to fail or falter beyond a certain point. And I think some of that is reluctance on Marvel's part. They saw what happened with that J. Scott Campbell variant of Riri Williams. They know that it doesn't take much to spark a bad wave of PR involving a female character. We can argue just how much of that can be chalked up to the Galbrush Paradox, but even if you don't believe it's real, I think the way Marvel is handling certain female characters is still an issue.

look.

conjecture is fine. debate is fine. even conspiracy theories are fine.

but here's the thing. the reason you are forced to conjecture, the reason you have these theories is because you have no actual facts. The reason you have no facts is because you're not backstage and don't have access to the relevant parties.

NO ONE thinks the way you're thinking. Writers don't. Editors don't. Not even marketing thinks this way.

Writers get an idea, based usually on an affinity for some character or team. They pitch the idea to an editor. The editor either likes the idea (meaning they discuss it with the Editor-in-Chief and they BOTH like it or the EiC IS the first to hear the pitch and he assigns an editor to oversee the day-to-day aspects of creating the book.)

At no time does the hand of the EiC reach down to meddle with how a given female character is portrayed in fear of some perceived future backlash. At no time does anyone, at any stage of the process, spike or modify some female character or her behavior based upon fears of future outrage.

There are hosts of examples of why this is obviously the case; some have been posted here but by no means are those the bulk or even a significant fraction of the whole. The phenomenon you're discussing, the one that pings your concerns, simply does not exist. Not in whole or in part. The process of story creation simply does not work the way it would have to for what you're worried about to exist.

It doesn't. Simply does not. No wiggle room. No space for debate. It simply does not happen.

Now debate can continue, obviously, and conspiracy theories and wild conjectures can as well but the FACT is, that's all they are. They have zero basis in anything related to reality.

It's entirely possible that the reason you feel this way is you are not reading enough of or the right comics.

[Calaigah]

NO ONE thinks the way you're thinking.

Yet this is going into 5 pages now?

Writers don't.

Yes they do. At least the crappy ones do. Good ones are the ones who don't.

No space for debate.

When people go to an extreme of being 100% right, I instantly start to doubt them. I actually agree with most of your arguments yet the way you come off is very off-putting and dismissive. In an ideal world where equality exists, everything you say is right, but we don't live in a world where equality exists, therefore I understand where MarvelMaster is coming from.

You don't need to be a woman to write female character but you do need to be empathetic to the struggles women have in order to write a good female character.

[Redjack]

Yet this is going into 5 pages now?



Yes they do. At least the crappy ones do. Good ones are the ones who don't.



When people go to an extreme of being 100% right, I instantly start to doubt them. I actually agree with most of your arguments yet the way you come off is very off-putting and dismissive. In an ideal world where equality exists, everything you say is right, but we don't live in a world where equality exists, therefore I understand where MarvelMaster is coming from.

You don't need to be a woman to write female character but you do need to be empathetic to the struggles women have in order to write a good female character.

No. You do not.

GOOD writing means you're creating INDIVIDUALS not "representatives of a struggle" of any kind. Characters aren't there to represent ISMS. They're there to serve the story and to be people. There are all sorts of women. "Women" are not a monolith of thought or behavior. Imagining they are means one is a crappy writer. Crappy. Ditto black people, gay people, "foreigners," people of other faiths than ones own, etc.

There is no such thing as "a" woman. There is Mika or Shirley or Haddas and each has her own life, upbringing, thoughts about love, faith, politics and NONE of them can be boiled down, exclusively, to her woman-ness. I'm sorry. People who think otherwise are either not writers or they are crappy writers. Gender is only one character-shaping component of thousands. That's it. For a GOOD writer, that's it. I don't care about the crap writers because they are crap writers.

Marvelmaster is coming from a position of ignorance (meaning nothing more than a lack of relevant information on this subject) of the process of creation and the structure of how things work in this venue. I'm in a position to know the real facts about both. I'm not "dismissive." I'm definitive and factual.

I'm also definitive that the Earth is not actually flat.