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  1. #31
    Spectacular Member DetectiveStrange's Avatar
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    For '03-'11, I enjoyed the Casey, Rucka, Simone, Azzarello, Johns, and Busiek stuff, & Birthright is my go to origin. That being said, I think the problem was that the line of Super-books of this period lacked the kind of long term quality storytelling that made the late 80s-early 90s super-books superior as a whole. For that I put the blame on editorial.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    If I can give an informed opinion it's in other media formats: the STAS/JLU cartoon universe. The 'World's Finest' episode is a great example of worst of the worst in portraying Superman.
    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    What didn't work for you worked beautifully for me. It's miles above tripe like STAS/JLU. Respect for the character.
    Well, most people would probably disagree with you there, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member DetectiveStrange's Avatar
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    Also, I think the Pak and Kuder stuff is great - or at least What Lies Beneath was great, which is the only thing I read by them.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, most people would probably disagree with you there, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.
    When it comes to STAS/JLU, I know that many Superman fans agree with me. I've known since 2005/06.

    I knew that this thread could devolve into 'name calling' and 'finger pointing', but not with myself in it. Consider me out of this.

  5. #35
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    There's always been one thing for me to enjoy except for during Truth. The most frustrating part is that the creators were all so good, felt like a giant waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    I can't comment on the worst eras, I only know the ~1991-2013 period anecdotaly. But this is a comment I've seen quite a few times since the internet. Dc turned Superman into Cyclops and Batman into Wolverine. The result in the popularity context couldn't be more predictable. No offense to Cyclops fans.

    To the point that we nowadays have fans of other characters come here and dictate how Superman's personality should be to contrast him with Batman.

    No character can survive this.
    Eh, well, as someone who also loves and reads a lot of Cyclops and Wolverine, I don't get either of those comparisons. Superman was written, until about 2002, as a pretty laid back and confident guy. He didn't use superheroics to escape his wife, he didn't have to dig through insecurity to develop, never lost hope in his dream, he didn't lose self control in a struggle against persecution (although he was king of the world, alt reality president of the USA , and occasional son of Darkseid), and he's never given up faith in a people, though he did have to make executive decision on Zod and the gang.

    But you know, now that you say it, it's funny how Batman is this ultimate bushido guy totally after Logan. Little dude backhanded Deathstroke before Batman ever even fought him, iirc.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    There's always been one thing for me to enjoy except for during Truth. The most frustrating part is that the creators were all so good, felt like a giant waste.
    The worst part of Truth for me was the SMWW part, obviously as fan of the relationship. It really seemed to me they were racing up to align things with BvS. That more than anything else ruined it for me.


    Eh, well, as someone who also loves and reads a lot of Cyclops and Wolverine, I don't get either of those comparisons. Superman was written, until about 2002, as a pretty laid back and confident guy. He didn't use superheroics to escape his wife, he didn't have to dig through insecurity to develop, never lost hope in his dream, he didn't lose self control in a struggle against persecution (although he was king of the world, alt reality president of the USA , and occasional son of Darkseid), and he's never given up faith in a people, though he did have to make executive decision on Zod and the gang.
    I know that I'm being ridiculous with this comparisson. It's not only on Supes side, I think I might have lost a friendship with a Cyclops fan even in the SMWW group. It's as much an uninformed opinion as people who say Supes is OP. It's the overal perception of the 4 characters in both franchises, but I know it's shallow.

    But you know, now that you say it, it's funny how Batman is this ultimate bushido guy totally after Logan. Little dude backhanded Deathstroke before Batman ever even fought him, iirc.
    I don't get this reference. Deadpool? Crossover?
    Last edited by dumbduck; 07-05-2017 at 06:12 PM.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    If I can give an informed opinion it's in other media formats: the STAS/JLU cartoon universe. The 'World's Finest' episode is a great example of worst of the worst in portraying Superman.
    I think many would agree with you about JLU, but I'm not sure about STAS. There's nothing wrong with him in "World's Finest," at least compared to what came later.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    All of the Timmverse outside of Batman: TAS is pretty overrated. STAS did wonders for the villains but not much for Superman. Justice League...outside of Batman everyone was mediocre to terribly portrayed (Superman and Wonder Woman unfortunately holding said terrible honors). JLU, that mediocre-to-terrible status (Superman gets a slight bump up from terrible to mediocre here, but sadly if anything Wonder Woman gets even worse) continued, except this time it featured secondary heroes of which a better job was done. But definitive DCU stuff it wasn't, ain't, and never will be. Only Batman The Animated Series was a complete homerun in absolutely every arena and is definitive of that particular mythos, and I feel ages well even today.

    All that said though that verse at least had a cohesion to it, something the Superman line in comics didn't have for nearly a decade.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-05-2017 at 06:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    DCAU Superman is bad at times, but not monotonically bad. Well, season 1 of Justice League is homogeneously bad, but there's a lot of nice stuff throughout, too. I actually think if you limited yourself to JL season 2, and the last two-thirds of JLU, you get decent Superman content. In that specified range, the show's biggest problems are not related to Superman. STAS has some charming moments, but it's probably on average a mediocre show created under a limiting vision of the character, and from my POV, based on some of the lousier aspects of the Post-Crisis.

    But I think STAS' bigger sin is less being bad, and more being disappointing.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    All of the Timmverse outside of Batman: TAS is pretty overrated. STAS did wonders for the villains but not much for Superman. Justice League...outside of Batman everyone was mediocre to terribly portrayed (Superman and Wonder Woman unfortunately holding said terrible honors). JLU, that mediocre-to-terrible status (Superman gets a slight bump up from terrible to mediocre here, but sadly if anything Wonder Woman gets even worse) continued, except this time it featured secondary heroes of which a better job was done. But definitive DCU stuff it wasn't, ain't, and never will be. Only Batman The Animated Series was a complete homerun in absolutely every arena and is definitive of that particular mythos, and I feel ages well even today.

    All that said though that verse at least had a cohesion to it, something the Superman line in comics didn't have for nearly a decade.
    I actually think S:TAS is more consistently good than B:TAS in some regards. It almost never has the lows B:TAS had (I've Got Batman in my Basement), but never reached as many highs.

    You're 100% right though regarding JLU, especially Wonder Woman. People really need to let that show go.

  11. #41
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    If I can give an informed opinion it's in other media formats: the STAS/JLU cartoon universe. The 'World's Finest' episode is a great example of worst of the worst in portraying Superman.
    Almost all of the DCAU Superman stuff is horrid, outside of Mark Millar's run on the tie in comic and the JLU episode "For the Man Who Has Everything".

  12. #42
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    In 2001 was Superman: Our worlds at War considered bad. I ask out of curiosity. I was like eleven when that was happening and I though it was like the most amazing thing ever lol. Superman going to the center of the sun and then pushing war world with his bare hands blew my mind.

    I'm just curious how did that story pass with older people? Like was it considered bad at the time or now?

  13. #43
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post


    I don't get this reference. Deadpool? Crossover?
    Wolverine fought Deathstroke in X-Men vs Teen titans

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    When it comes to STAS/JLU, I know that many Superman fans agree with me. I've known since 2005/06.
    If they do, then its the first I've ever heard of such a thing. I know many fans who hold STAS Superman out as a definitive Superman and the DCAU as a basically ideal version if the DCU.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 07-05-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    I'd say after the Electric Superman era Jurgens & company seemed to phone it for about a year or so before Loeb & company. Electric Superman wasn't that great in quality but the premise was a fun little break from the status-quo.

    Also Starting with New Krypton when Supes left his books for what seemed like forever at the time until Flashpoint. Between being on New Krypton for abut a year and then walking around America for about a year afterward it was not good. Especially Grounded where it seemed like DC was in a holding pattern with the character.. Like earlier posters said it was a lame duck period and it showed.

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