What is the worst period for Batman comics?

[darkseidpwns]

The noir atmosphere was really excellent. And I'm a fan of Martinborough's art - and of Sasha Bordeaux, so I don't hate this run. I just don't think it's anywhere close to his best stuff.

I think you're definitely right that we're not getting the hard boiled crime - but I think that's because first Morrison, then Snyder (apart from some elements of Black Mirror, but that was heavily blended with horror), were more horror/scifi writers than crime writers/fans, and as the drivers of the Batfamily for so long, they've shifted the tone and writers who are attracted to writing Batman.

King could definitely do it, though, as his Fudd crossover shows, though I personally am not a fan of the particular tropes he decided to mix in there. Also, I'd say his Rooftops and Swamp Thing stories were reasonable, if a bit fantastical, noir-ish stories.

Also, I think the sheer number of people who dislike the later Rucka/Brubaker and Gabrych/Willingham/Azzarello/Winick era is a big part of why noir Batman isn't really a thing anymore. Because that was the heyday of hardboiled - Dixon and Moench love noir, but they were also deeply embedded in the world of the pulps, which are related but distinct from the hardboiled.

I definitely prefer sci-fi, pulp and horror in comics over crime noir. I love crime stories on film but in comics and especially Batman ones they seem to be seriously lacking.

[Nick Miller]

I've read Batman stories from Year One until now and I find it hard to dislike ONE entire era. Some creative teams? Yes.

I like when Bats is a jerk,

And am I in the minority in liking murdere/fugitive?

[millernumber1]

Yes, that explains why they unceremoniously dumped Bru from Batman so that Loeb could write Hush. While I find Hush extremely overrated, looking at what came before and after it in the imnediate run it really comes across as a master piece. I'm a Brubaker fan, enjoyed Catwoman and Gotham Noir as well as his runs on Cap and Daredevil but Batman was weak as hell.
Rucka was better by a fair margin but neither was publishing material on par with their talent. Rucka was also far too interested in pet characters. Overall there's a reason why no one gives a crap about Whisper, Abott, Zeiss,Sasha,Crispus etc etc and I actually thought Zeiss could have been cool.

I read the Brubaker on Batman trades they published over the past few years, and while I agree that his work and Rucka's during that era was significantly below their talent, I don't think it's quite to the level of "Hush is a masterpiece in comparison." Hush is so rambly and muddled in the ending, and buoyed as all Loeb's work is by the art. I do tend to agree that Rucka is super interested in his pet characters - I just think that some of his pets (particularly Sasha) are awesome enough to justify it. Particularly in the first 10 years of his work for DC, Rucka tended to approach his characters from the outside - using his pets as a way to see the main character of the title without having to write an internal perspective (or more importantly, development, since at that time, Rucka really didn't feel he could develop his main characters). It's not quite as obvious in his Tec run as his Wonder Woman run, but I'm pretty sure that's part of what was going on.

Zeiss is interesting, but feels a bit too much like a Deadshot/Deathstroke shadow.

I definitely prefer sci-fi, pulp and horror in comics over crime noir. I love crime stories on film but in comics and especially Batman ones they seem to be seriously lacking.

How do you feel about Year One? That's like uber-noir. And also focuses more on Gordon than Bruce, so could technically be considered a pet character, even though Gordon's established already.

I've read Batman stories from Year One until now and I find it hard to dislike ONE entire era. Some creative teams? Yes.

And am I in the minority in liking murdere/fugitive?

Nope! I still have really fond memories of Murderer/Fugitive, because it's the second comic I remember reading (first was the one in NML where Superman visits). Plus James Tynion IV thinks it's awesome . I tend to agree completely that entire eras are hard to hate completely - even my least favorite era, the War Games/One Year Later era, had some amazing Birds of Prey stories (which I consider Batman because of Oracle and Huntress).

[Assam]

And am I in the minority in liking murdere/fugitive?

Well, you're not alone! I really enjoyed those crossovers.

[zep81]

Well, you're not alone! I really enjoyed those crossovers.

Are the new trades best to read the story? I bought them but havn't read them yet.

[millernumber1]

Are the new trades best to read the story? I bought them but havn't read them yet.

Yes, the new trades from a couple of years ago are definitely the way to go. There are occasionally a couple of weird side stories that perhaps didn't need to be there, but it's much better than trying to track down the old trades (though I did just get Fugitive vol. 3 for pennies ), since I believe those several things the new trades put back in.

[Adset]

Well, you're not alone! I really enjoyed those crossovers.

same here. i didn't even realize murderer/fugitive were controversial -- my assumption has always been officer down/murderer/fugitive were the last bit of wacky 90s fun prior to war games, which basically killed the vibe.

[millernumber1]

same here. i didn't even realize murderer/fugitive were controversial -- my assumption has always been officer down/murderer/fugitive were the last bit of wacky 90s fun prior to war games, which basically killed the vibe.

I dunno if I would say they're wacky fun. They're more "grim noir" stuff. I have a lot of affection for them for the reasons I've already mentioned, but I agree with darkseidpwns that they're significantly below what one might expect of the creative teams involved - a clear sign of the difficulties the Bat-office was dealing with during Denny O'Neil's...ouster/leaving/retirment, depending on how you read the situation. It was unsettled, let's just say. And I think it really showed in the story, which meanders a lot. That being said, even below their best, the creative teams shine in the individual moments.

[Timothy Hunter]

And am I in the minority in liking murderer/fugitive?

I agree with you, Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive is hands down, my favorite Bat-Family crossover, It was just such a bold idea, and it could've been handled disastrously, but I think the writers and editors handled the story excellently.

While I do realize that Batman was rather brash and cruel towards his proteges, I think in the story, it's acceptable, because he was framed for murder, so realistically he wouldn't be the most rational and kindest person.

[bretmaverick2]

I can see most of you haven't read the David V. Reed era of BATMAN. That was the first time I realized people writing BATMAN could be, to put it nicely, not good. Lackluster. Boring. Tepid.

[Moriarty]

Wouldn't it be that weird pre-Silver Age 1950s period? The 50s weren't a glorious period for Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

i get what you're saying but i kinda appreciate some of those wacky stories. Bat-Baby, Bat-Genie, Rainbow costumes... those are just so bizarre but somehow enjoyable.

[ViewtifulJC]

I can see most of you haven't read the David V. Reed era of BATMAN. That was the first time I realized people writing BATMAN could be, to put it nicely, not good. Lackluster. Boring. Tepid.

his run in the 70s was the worst "Batman" run I've ever experienced.

Bronze Age Batman in general is pretty wack outside the random O'Neil/Adams stories and those great 6 issues Engelhart/Rogers/Austin did on Detective Comics "Strange Apparitions"

and the Alan Burnett issues

[Jim Kelly]

I reject the whole premise of a worst period. In theory, the worst period would be when Batman, Superman et al are not being published at all. In every period they exist there's all those past comics and reprints plus whatever is currently being published, so everything just gets better in a geometric progression until and unless everything stops being published. So I don't have anything to add to this thread and I was going to ignore it, but I had to defend some periods of Batman that I really admire.

David V. Reed was a Batman writer back in the '40s and '50s. He returned to Batman in the '70s--probably because he was a science fiction writer that Julius Schwartz would have known from his previous career as a literary agent. David V. Reed wrote one of my favourite Batman stories of all time--"Ride, Bat-Hombre, Ride" (1949)--so I'm glad Julie gave the guy some work in the '70s. I'm not a huge fan of those '70s stories, but I've seen a lot of fans list them as great reads--such as "Where were you on the night Batman was killed?"

But Reed's work didn't exist in a vacuum. At the same time you had those stories you had Steve Englehart's run in 'TEC that stretched over a whole year, as well as Marshall Rogers' contributions to them and other tales of the Batman. The Haney and Aparo team-ups were still going strong in B&B, the Huntress was introduced in ALL-STAR COMICS, the JLA had their double-sized issues, and BATMAN FAMILY (edited by Al Milgrom) was going through its most creative epoch.

The same can be said for the '50s and early '60s. It's easy to see this 14 year stretch as all one thing, but it breaks down into three or four different periods really. Yes, you had science fiction stories throughout this period (as you did pretty much from the beginning of Batman to the present day), but those stories existed side by side with a wide range of other stories. The early '50s had a lot of the significant stories that added to the Batman arsenal and the legend, plus the reformation of Selina Kyle, many of the best Dick Sprang stories and a lot of great detective stories. The late '50s introduced most of the classic Batman family (i.e. Ace, Batwoman, Bat-Mite), the great team-ups of Batman and Superman, the Batmen of All Nations and Batman's travels around the world. The early '60s doubled-down on the Batman family stories, rolled out the Batman II & Robin II imaginary tales, revived some villains like Mad-Hatter while adding new villains like Clayface II and Cat-Man.

And, of course, many of the Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told were published--"The Man Behind the Red Hood" (1951), "The Joker's Utility Belt" (1952), "Superman and Batman's Greatest Foes" (1957), "The Joker Jury" (1964) and "The Laughing Fish" (1978).

[JBatmanFan05]

David V. Reed wrote one of my favourite Batman stories of all time--"Ride, Bat-Hombre, Ride" (1949)--so I'm glad Julie gave the guy some work in the '70s. I'm not a huge fan of those '70s stories, but I've seen a lot of fans list them as great reads--such as "Where were you on the night Batman was killed?"

I'm sure I would have liked any of Reed's 40s and 50s stories, but his 70s stories were...very underwhelming / mostly not so good. Some fun silly pulpy ideas (like the Underworld Olympics). You'd see these cool covers and expect this good story...but no. "Where were you on the night Batman was killed?" is pretty overrated IMHO even though I've never really seen any/many list it as a great read.

His main rogues' stories were especially dull. I did like though that was like the only writer to use Mad Hatter II at the time (I think we didn't see him again until Post-Crisis Barr).


It's a shame Don Kraar (who wrote B&Bold #183) and Roger Slifer (Batman #347) didn't do more than like one Batman story in the Bronze Age. Both very good reads, underrated reads.

[Jim Kelly]

The thing is you can't make the argument: Because David V. Reed therefore the "Worst Period Ever." The period wasn't limited to David V. Reed! There were other titles, the tabloid editions with great reprints, the Michael L. Fleisher encyclopedia, calendars by the likes of Neal Adams and Dick Giordano, the SUPERFRIENDS cartoon on one channel and the NEW ADVENTURES OF BATMAN on another channel.

So what DC did was very clever. The relevant Batman was a critical success, but not a demonstrable financial success, in the early '70s. DC discovered that their excellent quality comics didn't make money, but comics that appealed to a broad readership were still making good money. And on the TV, you now had a Batman & Robin who were very different from the Robbins/O'Neil/Novick/Adams/Giordano Creature of the Night Batman. DC could have just rolled over and gone back to the '60s formula, but they didn't do that.

They tried to satisfy a wide range of tastes in their comics. So BATMAN featured work by David V. Reed (and other writers) with Ernie Chan and John Calnan interior art. DETECTIVE COMICS featured work by a broad range of writers and artists who were given the freedom to experiment with the character. THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD had well-plotted team-ups by Haney & Aparo. And BATMAN FAMILY (which was selling better than DETECTIVE) had Robin & Batgirl but it also had a lot of other features and a variety of art styles and stories.

DETECTIVE COMICS was on the line to be cancelled, because it wasn't making enough money. So the title with the best quality was the worst performer. Don't blame DC for that--blame the comic book fans who would rather buy BATMAN and BATMAN FAMILY yet never supported 'TEC. It was only saved from cancellation because the DC staff went to bat for the title against their Warner masters. And the title was given a reprieve by making 'TEC into "Batman Family."

So, everyone should thank David V. Reed because he wrote a comic book that was successful, which kept BATMAN off the chopping block in the DC Implosion. If you don't like those comics--there was a lot of other good stuff that came out at that time. And the sales from the one helped support the quality in the other.