Who is the greatest martial artist in the Rebirth U?

[Anthony Shaw]

If Karate Kid is not the greatest hand-to-hand fighter in the DC Universe then what is the point of his character and name? This guy has so much skill that he was allowed to be on a team where it's obligatory to have superpowers. But until his return, we can assume Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva are the best.

Feel free to drop the mic now....

[Lorendiac]

I've participated in similar discussions, over the years, going back to well before "New 52" was a thing, and my attitude has long been that I don't think there is any one non-superpower-augmented character who can honestly be called "the top dog in the martial arts" in the DCU.

Really like your thinking with the tiered approach but how is Slade not in either?

I quoted the first paragraph of my previous post so I can point out that I used the words "any one non-superpower-augmented character" to describe what sort of people I had in mind when I talked about whether or not any one of them could ever become the undisputed "top dog."

If we have seen a character land some nasty punches on Batman, for instance, but we also know that this character had superhuman speed which meant Batman had precious little chance of seeing the blow in time to block it with his normal human reflexes, then I feel this doesn't really prove much about whether the other guy is inherently "more skilled in the martial arts" than Batman is. It only proves that the other guy has unfair advantages which wouldn't work the same way if he were competing in a martial arts tournament in the real world!

In other words, I omitted Slade Wilson from my examples of the DCU's "Top Tier" martial artists because he cheats. He doesn't have to work within the limits of a normal human metabolism when it's time to throw a punch, or block the other person's fast kick, or whatever. For decades it has been made clear to us that he has superhuman strength, stamina, reflexes, and so forth. Including enhanced physical senses which make it very difficult to sneak up behind him without his hearing you coming (although I once saw Wolverine accomplish that feat). So, while I've seen Slade prove he can beat Bruce Wayne or Dick Grayson in one-on-one combat, I don't regard those as "fair fights."

On the other hand: While Black Canary often has a sonic scream as a superpower, it doesn't affect her strength, speed, stamina, etc., and she frequently doesn't use it in a fight at all. And back in the comic books of the 1990s she didn't even have that power anymore -- she was just a physically normal woman who kept herself in perfect condition and sometimes went on dangerous assignments for Oracle. The way I remember it, most of her one-on-one fights with other martial artists have usually been done with normal human muscle and reflexes and so forth -- she apparently likes to give her opponents a sporting chance if they aren't trying to use guns, or superpowers, or outnumber her twenty-to-one, or some other dirty trick meant to give them an "unfair advantage."

[Krypto's Fleas]

I quoted the first paragraph of my previous post so I can point out that I used the words "any one non-superpower-augmented character" to describe what sort of people I had in mind when I talked about whether or not any one of them could ever become the undisputed "top dog."

If we have seen a character land some nasty punches on Batman, for instance, but we also know that this character had superhuman speed which meant Batman had precious little chance of seeing the blow in time to block it with his normal human reflexes, then I feel this doesn't really prove much about whether the other guy is inherently "more skilled in the martial arts" than Batman is. It only proves that the other guy has unfair advantages which wouldn't work the same way if he were competing in a martial arts tournament in the real world!

In other words, I omitted Slade Wilson from my examples of the DCU's "Top Tier" martial artists because he cheats. He doesn't have to work within the limits of a normal human metabolism when it's time to throw a punch, or block the other person's fast kick, or whatever. For decades it has been made clear to us that he has superhuman strength, stamina, reflexes, and so forth. Including enhanced physical senses which make it very difficult to sneak up behind him without his hearing you coming (although I once saw Wolverine accomplish that feat). So, while I've seen Slade prove he can beat Bruce Wayne or Dick Grayson in one-on-one combat, I don't regard those as "fair fights."

On the other hand: While Black Canary often has a sonic scream as a superpower, it doesn't affect her strength, speed, stamina, etc., and she frequently doesn't use it in a fight at all. And back in the comic books of the 1990s she didn't even have that power anymore -- she was just a physically normal woman who kept herself in perfect condition and sometimes went on dangerous assignments for Oracle. The way I remember it, most of her one-on-one fights with other martial artists have usually been done with normal human muscle and reflexes and so forth -- she apparently likes to give her opponents a sporting chance if they aren't trying to use guns, or superpowers, or outnumber her twenty-to-one, or some other dirty trick meant to give them an "unfair advantage."

Terrific explanation. Thanks .