So it looks like lenticular covers is how Legacy is gonna change the industry.

[Orbus]

You nailed it (bold). They don't have the FF's right. That is the actual reason.

Hulk hasn't sold well in many years and he has an on-going. Same goes for the Inhumans, etc.

Let's be real, not selling isn't the reason. Why did Gazillon (Marvel heroes) got in trouble because they wanted to make a FF event. Why isn't there any toys, why aren't they in any Marvel promo image. Please.

In 2015 :
- Fantastic Four 645 = 40,823 (last issue I think).
- Fantastic Four 644 = 33,297

Those numbers are better than most on-going they have right now.

Then how come we have so many X-Men related books right now?

If movie rights are Marvel's bottom line then how come they are still publishing the likes of Deadpool? Why are FF concepts and characters playing major roles in books like The Ultimates, Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, the various Iron Man and Spider-Man. Heck why is there Spider-Man books since Marvel the only shares the movie rights to Spidey.

You keep bringing this up as a big "Gotcha" moment when I'm not denying that Marvel not owning the movie rights is a factor, they are going they are going to consider a multitude of things that affect their profits, it's a business go figure. What I am arguing is it's not as big a factor as people think.

[Jokerz79]

You nailed it (bold). They don't have the FF's right. That is the actual reason.

Hulk hasn't sold well in many years and he has an on-going. Same goes for the Inhumans, etc.

Let's be real, not selling isn't the reason. Why did Gazillon (Marvel heroes) got in trouble because they wanted to make a FF event. Why isn't there any toys, why aren't they in any Marvel promo image. Please.

In 2015 :
- Fantastic Four 645 = 40,823 (last issue I think).
- Fantastic Four 644 = 33,297

Those numbers are better than most on-going they have right now.

FF was averaging in the 30,000 to 32,000 range when cancelled and still better than some current ongoing books.

[Magneto]

Then how come we have so many X-Men related books right now?

If movie rights are Marvel's bottom line then how come they are still publishing the likes of Deadpool? Why are FF concepts and characters playing major roles in books like The Ultimates, Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, the various Iron Man and Spider-Man. Heck why is there Spider-Man books since Marvel the only shares the movie rights to Spidey.

You keep bringing this up as a big "Gotcha" moment when I'm not denying that Marvel not owning the movie rights is a factor, they are going they are going to consider a multitude of things that affect their profits, it's a business go figure. What I am arguing is it's not as big a factor as people think.

Because the F4 are far easier to bury than the X-Men. They're trying hard with the X-Men by keeping them out of toys, video games and promo images, but the X-fanbase is a lot bigger than the F4 one.

They are using Dr Doom because he's Marvel best villain. Torch and Thing are also getting used, but the F4 concept is dead. They can't make these two disappear just like that, so they're using them in another way where the F4 concept doesn't matter. They're just Avengers or Shield agent now.

Reed and Sue were the F4.

[dragonmp93]

Well Marvel still thanks them for buying it regardless of what they do with it.



I would argue they are sidelined the FF franchise (somewhat) rather than kill it.

No one is really denying that the fact Marvel not owning the movie and some merchandising rights isn't a factor in their decision to do this and yeah it sucks but people make these same hyperbolic arguments about the X-Men line being killed and remind me again how many books they have? Because they still sell. Fact is apart from a minor uptick that was Hickman's run the book hasn't sold well in decades; That's why there is no FF book right now.

And yet despite there being little commercial reason for it we still have two FF characters placed in prominent positions in Marvel's publishing. Heck not only did we also get a Doctor Doom book and now getting a Marvel Two-In-One and people are still arguing that Marvel are trying to kill the Fantastic Four?

Captain Marvel is, you know.

And well, when the FF were cancelled, their book sale numbers were still better than what the Inhumans sell these days.

Then how come we have so many X-Men related books right now?

If movie rights are Marvel's bottom line then how come they are still publishing the likes of Deadpool? Why are FF concepts and characters playing major roles in books like The Ultimates, Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, the various Iron Man and Spider-Man. Heck why is there Spider-Man books since Marvel the only shares the movie rights to Spidey.

You keep bringing this up as a big "Gotcha" moment when I'm not denying that Marvel not owning the movie rights is a factor, they are going they are going to consider a multitude of things that affect their profits, it's a business go figure. What I am arguing is it's not as big a factor as people think.

Spider-Man is basically the only Marvel hero that was as known as Batman or Superman before the MCU; or even after.

And with your logic, DisMarvel loves the X-men because they gave their concepts to the Inhumans during ANAD Marvel.

[dragonmp93]

Because the F4 are far easier to bury than the X-Men. They're trying hard with the X-Men by keeping them out of toys, video games and promo images, but the X-fanbase is a lot bigger than the F4 one.

They are using Dr Doom because he's Marvel best villain. Torch and Thing are also getting used, but the F4 concept is dead. They can't make these two disappear just like that, so they're using them in another way where the F4 concept doesn't matter. They're just Avengers or Shield agent now.

Reed and Sue were the F4.

Hence the noble mission of the X-board of continuing to attack and create flamewars; so DisMarvel wont think that the fanbase doesnt care about the X-men anymore.
After all, that's what got cancelled the FF.

[teamhawkeyes]

Hence the noble mission of the X-board of continuing to attack and create flamewars; so DisMarvel wont think that the fanbase doesnt care about the X-men anymore.
After all, that's what got cancelled the FF.

This must be a joke, right?

[dragonmp93]

This must be a joke, right?

Well, what do you think ?.

You know, DisMarvel did said that the FF were cancelled because their fans werent passionate about them anymore; unlike the X-men fans.

[Prof. Warren]

This must be a joke, right?

Hilarious in a sad way, but not an actual joke per se.

[Orbus]

Because the F4 are far easier to bury than the X-Men. They're trying hard with the X-Men by keeping them out of toys, video games and promo images, but the X-fanbase is a lot bigger than the F4 one.

You're right. The X-Men are (currently) much more popular than the Fantastic Four. They sell more thus they are not cancelling their books. That being said Marvel could make a very reasonable case to scale the franchise back but they have something like six books currently being published. More than that if you count Uncanny Avengers, the various Deadpool books and Old Man Logan.

They are using Dr Doom because he's Marvel best villain. Torch and Thing are also getting used, but the F4 concept is dead. They can't make these two disappear just like that, so they're using them in another way where the F4 concept doesn't matter. They're just Avengers or Shield agent now.

I'm not sure I can agree with the idea that the FF characters are hard done by just being members of Marvel's currently best known teams like Guardians of the Galaxy, SHIELD, Avengers and so on. Heck Doom, Thing and Human Torch will have their own series.

Officially yeah the FF as a team is gone although you could probably look at a lot of Marvel using a lot of their characters and concepts especially Two-In-One two ways. It could just be a bone they are throwing to the few remaining FF fans or it's a testing the waters to bring them back. Fantastic Four was never at cancellation levels but the fact that even with some some good talent it hasn't sold that well in decades suggests there's a problem with the FF as a concept that it isn't connecting with buyers. I have my own thoughts on why that is but Two-In-One as a quasi FF might be a decent way of weeding out what wasn't working with the proper version or maybe not but I'm glad there's an attempt there.

And well, when the FF were cancelled, their book sale numbers were still better than what the Inhumans sell these days.

So? No one is denying that Marvel has an extra incentive to keep Inhumans or Captain Marvel going because when they have their series and movie out in might create an interest in the comics themselves but there's still a possibility a certain run or story will either have an increase in sales or critical acclaim. FF was propped up for several years do you begrudge Marvel doing that to other books for a few years?

Spider-Man is basically the only Marvel hero that was as known as Batman or Superman before the MCU; or even after.

So? Perhaps the complex need to stop with hyperbole that the X-Men are going to go away because of movie rights because if we follow that logic anyone can clap back that movie rights are not stopping Marvel publishing Spider-Man because his book sells and the character is one of the best known superheroes to the wider public. But using the pure logic of the complex he should be gone by now but even before Marvel and Sony decided to share they were expanding the Spider-Man line.

And with your logic, DisMarvel loves the X-men because they gave their concepts to the Inhumans during ANAD Marvel.

What I'm saying is different. Marvel are literally using characters and concepts they don't own the movie rights to in a lot of their books they are strongly pushing it. Surely that suggests that they value these characters and concepts that movie rights aren't stopping them from using them.

Also you'll have to forgive me as I remember the accusations that the Inhumans were intended to replace the X-Men's role in the Marvel Universe way before the All-New, All-Different era. They faced those arguments as soon as Inhumans books were launched in the wake of Infinity. I can't really speak for the ones that were published as a part of Infinity but the ones I read from the ANAD era didn't strike me as very X-Men in tone or even that much in themes.

[Magneto]

You're right. The X-Men are (currently) much more popular than the Fantastic Four. They sell more thus they are not cancelling their books. That being said Marvel could make a very reasonable case to scale the franchise back but they have something like six books currently being published. More than that if you count Uncanny Avengers, the various Deadpool books and Old Man Logan.

I'm not sure I can agree with the idea that the FF characters are hard done by just being members of Marvel's currently best known teams like Guardians of the Galaxy, SHIELD, Avengers and so on. Heck Doom, Thing and Human Torch will have their own series.

Officially yeah the FF as a team is gone although you could probably look at a lot of Marvel using a lot of their characters and concepts especially Two-In-One two ways. It could just be a bone they are throwing to the few remaining FF fans or it's a testing the waters to bring them back. Fantastic Four was never at cancellation levels but the fact that even with some some good talent it hasn't sold that well in decades suggests there's a problem with the FF as a concept that it isn't connecting with buyers. I have my own thoughts on why that is but Two-In-One as a quasi FF might be a decent way of weeding out what wasn't working with the proper version or maybe not but I'm glad there's an attempt there.

We will have to agree to disagree then. We are just interpreting things differently.

[Mike_Murdock]

Here's a Forbes article from 2015 about Marvel killing X-Men and FF merchandise over the rights issues and they used a quote from Tom Brevoort about choosing to promote things you have 100% right too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davegon.../#2b5d9b012b51

Marvel was definitely for a period downgrading the X-Men and FF brands.

There's a huge difference between Marvel downplaying merchandizing without downplaying the characters in the comics. The fact that movie merchandize profits is not exclusively going to Marvel certainly complicates the whole thing.

No one at Marvel said anything about the covers changing the industry. That's just the facile, snarky take - which sadly is all some fans want to bother with.

Exactly this. It's either completely disingenuous or completely stupid. At a minimum, we can't judge it until the Legacy one shot comes out (although the promises they've made, as vague as they are, suggest that it's meant to be judged as an ongoing story jumping out of that one shot).

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

The early 90's are back baby! Gold foil prism gatefold covers for everyone!

[dragonmp93]

No one at Marvel said anything about the covers changing the industry. That's just the facile, snarky take - which sadly is all some fans want to bother with.

Ultimately, the Legacy books will be judged on their actual content. That they're doing lenticular covers with these Legacy homage covers just makes sense from a marketing standpoint. Why not do it? As soon as I saw the gifs, I thought that lenticular covers for these would look cool. DC still does "gimmick" covers of their own. The Metal preludes have sported '90s style foil covers and they did a whole month of lenticular covers during the New52 (villain month, I believe) so it's more than fair game for Marvel to go this route. And as these are variants, there's no need for anyone who doesn't want them to buy them.

Well, that's what they showed us in the announcement the other day.

[dragonmp93]

You're right. The X-Men are (currently) much more popular than the Fantastic Four. They sell more thus they are not cancelling their books. That being said Marvel could make a very reasonable case to scale the franchise back but they have something like six books currently being published. More than that if you count Uncanny Avengers, the various Deadpool books and Old Man Logan.



I'm not sure I can agree with the idea that the FF characters are hard done by just being members of Marvel's currently best known teams like Guardians of the Galaxy, SHIELD, Avengers and so on. Heck Doom, Thing and Human Torch will have their own series.

Officially yeah the FF as a team is gone although you could probably look at a lot of Marvel using a lot of their characters and concepts especially Two-In-One two ways. It could just be a bone they are throwing to the few remaining FF fans or it's a testing the waters to bring them back. Fantastic Four was never at cancellation levels but the fact that even with some some good talent it hasn't sold that well in decades suggests there's a problem with the FF as a concept that it isn't connecting with buyers. I have my own thoughts on why that is but Two-In-One as a quasi FF might be a decent way of weeding out what wasn't working with the proper version or maybe not but I'm glad there's an attempt there.



So? No one is denying that Marvel has an extra incentive to keep Inhumans or Captain Marvel going because when they have their series and movie out in might create an interest in the comics themselves but there's still a possibility a certain run or story will either have an increase in sales or critical acclaim. FF was propped up for several years do you begrudge Marvel doing that to other books for a few years?



So? Perhaps the complex need to stop with hyperbole that the X-Men are going to go away because of movie rights because if we follow that logic anyone can clap back that movie rights are not stopping Marvel publishing Spider-Man because his book sells and the character is one of the best known superheroes to the wider public. But using the pure logic of the complex he should be gone by now but even before Marvel and Sony decided to share they were expanding the Spider-Man line.



What I'm saying is different. Marvel are literally using characters and concepts they don't own the movie rights to in a lot of their books they are strongly pushing it. Surely that suggests that they value these characters and concepts that movie rights aren't stopping them from using them.

Also you'll have to forgive me as I remember the accusations that the Inhumans were intended to replace the X-Men's role in the Marvel Universe way before the All-New, All-Different era. They faced those arguments as soon as Inhumans books were launched in the wake of Infinity. I can't really speak for the ones that were published as a part of Infinity but the ones I read from the ANAD era didn't strike me as very X-Men in tone or even that much in themes.

You seem to be missing one little detail; the things have gotten worse for the X-men since Disney bought Star Wars in 2012, because of Ike Perlmutter, a major shareholder who has known history of being petty; and for the $128k dollars question, guess who has the rights for the original trilogy of Star Wars ?, and here is some hints: it's not Marvel, it's not Disney, it's not Sony.

That's right, FOX, who owns them for at least 3 more years, and who owns the original movie, i.e. the episode IV, permanently. So no, the relationship with FOX and the X-men is not and never will be the same as with Sony and Spider-Man.

Do you really think that AvX happening at the same time as this and the Avengers movie was just a coincidence; or just Bendis being Bendis ?. And before, you say something, House of M happened because Joe Quesada hated that there was way too many mutants.

[rui no onna]

Lol, DC just announced a glow-in-the-dark cover for a new Deadman mini. I feel like we should start making a checklist of 90s cover gimmicks. XD