Thread Drift: Mary Jane and Post-Ditko Additions

[Mister Mets]

And they were married for another 25 years until the editor-in-chief erased it with deal with the devil; because "it's magic, so we dont have to explain it. "

It was less time than that. And there were several other efforts to get a single Spidey (the clone sage, the period MJ was believed dead, the separation.)

Prior to One More Day, they had been together without interruption for four years and a few months.

[Mister Mets]

Spider-Man would have been an obscure series that lasted a couple of years that ended decades ago. It would certainly not be Spider-Man as we know it.

The series is good enough that it would be more than obscure.

Plus, there would have been efforts to revive it. See Doctor Strange and Silver Surfer.

Of course, those efforts might have screwed things up.

[Kevinroc]

The series is good enough that it would be more than obscure.

Plus, there would have been efforts to revive it. See Doctor Strange and Silver Surfer.

Of course, those efforts might have screwed things up.

Well, I'm not sure we'd have had multiple animated series, multiple film series, multiple video game appearances (both as a star or as one of many characters), a Broadway musical, and all manner of other products if the original title had ended after Ditko had left.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I first encountered Spider-Man in the '90s.

I think calling Mary Jane the "other half of the Spider-Man mythos" and such is misrepresentative. She's a supporting character who wasn't formally introduced until after one of the co-creators had left and long after the series was fully formed. Even then, she didn't become the de facto love interest until 1987, 25 years into the series' history. Spider-Man was a pop culture icon long before then.

Again, she was actually created by the original co-creators, even if we first got a look at her under Romita, and has been a central supporting cast member since pretty much the earliest days of Spider-Man. There are several other characters who were debuted under Romita without which the Spider-Man franchise would not be the same: Kingpin, Rhino, Shocker, Hammerhead, George Stacy, Robbie Roberston, etc. So, I really don't see how its somehow a count "against" Mary Jane that Romita was the one to design her look, especially since (1) Romita's Spider-Man is so iconic to the series and (2) the only reason Ditko left was because of estrangement between him and Lee. Ditko didn't leave because he had nothing left to contribute to Spider-Man. In fact, him leaving before he could design Mary Jane shows that he did still have contributions to make.

Also, MJ and Peter were MARRIED in 1987, but Peter and MJ had been dancing around each other well before then and it could be argued that she has been his definite "main" love interest ever since right after Gwen Stacy's death back in '73.

In short, saying that Mary Jane isn't a HUGE part of the Spider-Man franchise is a huge stretch to say the least.

[Lee]

Spider-Man would have been an obscure series that lasted a couple of years that ended decades ago. It would certainly not be Spider-Man as we know it.

I'm not saying the finer details wouldn't different. What I'm saying is that the series was fully formed before Romita came along. Its premise, its themes, its supporting characters, its settings, its roster of villains. All the ingredients of what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man were there in those first four years. The fact that Romita introduced some popular characters afterwards doesn't change that. Spider-Man is still recognisably Spider-Man with or without Mary Jane. She doesn't make up 50% of the mythos, which is the assertion I was responding to in the first place.

Again, she was actually created by the original co-creators, even if we first got a look at her under Romita, and has been a central supporting cast member since pretty much the earliest days of Spider-Man.

She wasn't a central supporting character in the Ditko run. She was mentioned a few times and appeared once.

There are several other characters who were debuted under Romita without which the Spider-Man franchise would not be the same: Kingpin, Rhino, Shocker, Hammerhead, George Stacy, Robbie Roberston, etc. So, I really don't see how its somehow a count "against" Mary Jane that Romita was the one to design her look, especially since (1) Romita's Spider-Man is so iconic to the series and (2) the only reason Ditko left was because of estrangement between him and Lee. Ditko didn't leave because he had nothing left to contribute to Spider-Man. In fact, him leaving before he could design Mary Jane shows that he did still have contributions to make.

I wouldn't say that Hammerhead and Robbie Robertson make up 50% of the Spider-Man mythos either. I wouldn't say that Rhino is the yin to Spider-Man's yang. I wouldn't say that Spider-Man just isn't Spider-Man without the Kingpin.

Go back to my original post, that's what I was arguing against - the idea that Mary Jane is half the Spider-Man mythos and that Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man without her.

Mary Jane is a popular character who has had a large presence in the Spider-Man mythos, but the series was fully formed before she arrived and has existed in multiple iterations without her after she arrived.

I would make the exact same argument about Venom.

Also, MJ and Peter were MARRIED in 1987, but Peter and MJ had been dancing around each other well before then and it could be argued that she has been his definite "main" love interest ever since right after Gwen Stacy's death back in '73.

She was largely absent for much of the early '80s and when she returned it wasn't as Peter's girlfriend. They'd gone around 100 issues of ASM (+ 100 issues of PPTSSM, +100 issues of MTU/WOSM) without dating when it was suddenly decided to have them get married. Prior to that decision there was no main love interest in the series. In those first 25 years there's no character you could point to as the main love interest.

By the time they were married in the comics, Spider-Man had already had three cartoon series and one live action series (excluding the Japanese one) but Mary Jane wasn't featured in any of them (aside from a single episode of the '60s cartoon, where she was Captain Stacy's niece).

In short, saying that Mary Jane isn't a HUGE part of the Spider-Man franchise is a huge stretch to say the least.

I never said she wasn't.

I said that she wasn't half of the Spider-Man mythos. I said that she wasn't essential.

[Miles To Go]

Again, she was actually created by the original co-creators, even if we first got a look at her under Romita, and has been a central supporting cast member since pretty much the earliest days of Spider-Man. There are several other characters who were debuted under Romita without which the Spider-Man franchise would not be the same: Kingpin, Rhino, Shocker, Hammerhead, George Stacy, Robbie Roberston, etc. So, I really don't see how its somehow a count "against" Mary Jane that Romita was the one to design her look, especially since (1) Romita's Spider-Man is so iconic to the series and (2) the only reason Ditko left was because of estrangement between him and Lee. Ditko didn't leave because he had nothing left to contribute to Spider-Man. In fact, him leaving before he could design Mary Jane shows that he did still have contributions to make.

Also, MJ and Peter were MARRIED in 1987, but Peter and MJ had been dancing around each other well before then and it could be argued that she has been his definite "main" love interest ever since right after Gwen Stacy's death back in '73.

In short, saying that Mary Jane isn't a HUGE part of the Spider-Man franchise is a huge stretch to say the least.

Correct, MJ was Peter's girlfriend after the first clone saga which was brought to an end during Marv Wolfman's time on the book, she and Peter repeatedly danced around the idea of will they/won't they until she was phased out of the book and did'nt return until Roger Stern's ASM stint. Once DeFalco established MJ knew who Peter was, their friendship and bond became so enriched that marriage/commitment was virtually the only logical course of action for either of them.

How is MJ ''misrepresented'' as a significant part of the mythos? Need I remind this person what the first title for Spider-Man announced for Legacy was? It sure wasn't ASM, it was Renew Your Vows, a book which pushes MJ hard as the second half of the mythos along with a third in her daughter Annie.

[RD!]

Many writers speak of characters who write themselves, a most mysterious phenomenon
I read Spider-Man from AF15 to Civil War and it was clear that Peter and MJ were meant to be, even if the writers themselves didn't know it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

She wasn't a central supporting character in the Ditko run. She was mentioned a few times and appeared once.

Uh, because they wanted to keep her appearance a secret to the reader. Not because they thought, "well this character will never be important to Spider-Man." Plus, Spidey's earliest days DON'T just include the Ditko run. Romita was just as important to Spider-Man as Ditko was. Trying to pretend that characters introduced under Romita are somehow "less" important is ridiculous.

I wouldn't say that Hammerhead and Robbie Robertson make up 50% of the Spider-Man mythos either. I wouldn't say that Rhino is the yin to Spider-Man's yang. I wouldn't say that Spider-Man just isn't Spider-Man without the Kingpin.

Kingpin, Rhino, Mary Jane, Hammerhead, George Stacy, the Robertsons, etc are all classic Spider-Man characters. Cumulatively, Spider-Man would not be the same without them. Kingpin was even one of the main villains of the 90s animated series. So again, don't get the idea that a character coming after the original creative team can't become essential to a franchise or at least become a so important to it that the franchise would not be successful without them.

I'm sure if you pulled out just one of Ditko's creations, like Vulture or Scorpion, you could say "Spider-Man would still be Spider-Man," but (1) why would you and (2) it kind of misses the point that cumulatively, the contributions over the years are what make a creator invaluable to the series.

Bet we better stop saying that Venom, Jackal, and Hobglobin are classic Spidey villains then, huh. And I guess Poison Ivy, Riddler, Bane, Harley Quinn, Ra's al Ghul, Man-Bat etc. are not important to the Batman franchise, since none of them were created by Bob Kane.

Go back to my original post, that's what I was arguing against - the idea that Mary Jane is half the Spider-Man mythos and that Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man without her.

It really isn't. Mary Jane is Peter's most enduring love interest. There are very few comic-book romances that are so famous that even non-comic readers instantly recognize them. I can only think of maybe four: Clark Kent and Lois Lane, Reed Richards and Sue Storm, Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle, and then of course, Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson. I remember telling one of my friends (who'd never read a comic in her life) once how Peter and MJ were no longer together in the comics, and she dropped her jaw and said "why would they ever do that?" So, yeah, I'd say that to many people, Spider-Man is NOT the same without Mary Jane.

She was largely absent for much of the early '80s and when she returned it wasn't as Peter's girlfriend. They'd gone around 100 issues of ASM (+ 100 issues of PPTSSM, +100 issues of MTU/WOSM) without dating when it was suddenly decided to have them get married. Prior to that decision there was no main love interest in the series. In those first 25 years there's no character you could point to as the main love interest.

The seeds of Peter and MJ becoming a serious couple were planted pretty much as early as that scene in #122 when she stays there and comforts him over Gwen's death, even though he practically told her to shove it. The relationship would continue to be built up in subsequent issues, in #131, Betty confronts MJ about her feelings for Peter, to which MJ responds by avoiding the issue. And that's important for the context of their relationship because MJ wasn't the kind to get tied down or too attached to any one guy, as she had said multiple times. Although she did display some serious feelings for other guys she had dated, namely Harry (and you could therefore see her brushing them off as a defense mechanism, given what we've learned of her family life since those issues), those affections only really showed themselves after she had been with those guys. So, for her to evade answering whether or not she had serious feelings for Peter, when they hadn't even started dating yet, was kind of a big deal in showing that Peter wasn't like any other guy she'd dated.

Of course, then they did start dating in #136. By issue #143, the relationship had obviously been getting serious because its the issue where Peter and MJ, being faced with being separated for the first time since they'd been dating, finally begin to realize the scope of their feelings for each other:



That relationship was then tested when Gwen seemingly returned (although it was just a clone) in #145, but that turned out to be just another milestone for Peter and MJ's relationship in two ways: (1) because when Gwen, the woman Peter wanted to marry, asks Peter if he still loved her, he hesitated because he'd begun feeling seriously about Mary Jane, and (2) when MJ is disheartened that Peter seems to be spending a lot of time with the Gwen clone, Aunt May encourages her to go after Peter regardless of Gwen, cementing that MJ was always May's favorite. And then of course came #150, where Peter realizes that he's come to love MJ as much as he loved Gwen and that his love for her has supplanted the love he had for Gwen:



That all of course leads us to #182, which is the issue where Peter first proposed to MJ. MJ turns him down and then that begins her long absence from Spidey comics, where we're introduced to a parade of love interests. Honestly, it actually might have been the right move, because since Marvel wasn't ready to settle Peter down just yet, MJ leaving the series for a time maybe spared her from being as uninteresting as Gwen had become before dying, being simply the "token girlfriend." However, none of these new romantic interests really came close to the level of importance that MJ achieved and MJ sort of hung over Peter as "the one who got away." That's sort of cemented when we finally do see her again in #238, as all of their friends and family try and set them up together, cementing that even the rest of the supporting cast recognized how MJ was the one that Peter always loved the most and thought they should end up together.

But that's not even the most important revelation that came in their relationship. THAT was issue #257 where its revealed that not only does Mary Jane know that Peter is Spider-Man, but...that she's known all along, even before they met. That revelation is so important to the series and their relationship because it explains so much of her behavior. From her being hesitant to get involved with him initially to her flirting with him while she was with Harry (her way of bringing Harry's drug use to his attention) to her turning down his first proposal. It even explains why she wanted to go "see the Rhino" in her first appearance (because she knew Peter was probably looking for an excuse to get down there).

And then of course, ultimately, the marriage (I'm skipping a lot in between there because, actually MJ had come back into Peter's life a couple times). But, even people who didn't support the marriage should take notice of the fact that when Marvel thought it was time to finally let Peter settle down, that they brought back Mary Jane to do it. Its sort of like an admission from Marvel that none of the other love interests they'd introduced in that time were serious enough to really consider being Peter's wife. It sort of reminds me of what's happened since Brand New Day. I don't know if history will repeat itself, but I hope it does.

By the time they were married in the comics, Spider-Man had already had three cartoon series and one live action series (excluding the Japanese one) but Mary Jane wasn't featured in any of them (aside from a single episode of the '60s cartoon, where she was Captain Stacy's niece).

I said that she wasn't half of the Spider-Man mythos. I said that she wasn't essential.

And then was his main love interest for the whole of the Spider-Man Animated Series from the 90s and the Raimi movie trilogy, which are arguably, the most famous and important Spider-Man media adaptations to date. Even in the face of Spider-Man: Homecoming, I'd say that the movies that did the best at capturing the essence of Spider-Man are Raimi's original two.

I'd say to a lot of people, Mary Jane is essential to Peter. As I outlined above, their relationship played out in such a dynamic story about a guy bouncing back from tragedy to find true love again that yes, Spider-Man comics and the franchise as we know it wouldn't be the same without it.

[Kevinroc]

I'm not saying the finer details wouldn't different. What I'm saying is that the series was fully formed before Romita came along. Its premise, its themes, its supporting characters, its settings, its roster of villains. All the ingredients of what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man were there in those first four years. The fact that Romita introduced some popular characters afterwards doesn't change that. Spider-Man is still recognisably Spider-Man with or without Mary Jane. She doesn't make up 50% of the mythos, which is the assertion I was responding to in the first place.

MJ's presence has probably been felt in more Spider-Man comics than not.

She wasn't a central supporting character in the Ditko run. She was mentioned a few times and appeared once.

This makes it seem like she's a lesser character because she was designed by Romita. Is the Green Goblin a lesser character because we didn't learn his identity until Romita took over?

I wouldn't say that Hammerhead and Robbie Robertson make up 50% of the Spider-Man mythos either. I wouldn't say that Rhino is the yin to Spider-Man's yang. I wouldn't say that Spider-Man just isn't Spider-Man without the Kingpin.

Go back to my original post, that's what I was arguing against - the idea that Mary Jane is half the Spider-Man mythos and that Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man without her.

Mary Jane is a popular character who has had a large presence in the Spider-Man mythos, but the series was fully formed before she arrived and has existed in multiple iterations without her after she arrived.

I would make the exact same argument about Venom.

Stan Lee and Steve Ditko and John Romita had nothing to do with Venom's creation. They did have something to do with MJ's. I don't recall saying I thought she was "half the mythos" (seems like an arbitrary value placed on a singular supporting character, no matter how significant they are.)

She was largely absent for much of the early '80s and when she returned it wasn't as Peter's girlfriend. They'd gone around 100 issues of ASM (+ 100 issues of PPTSSM, +100 issues of MTU/WOSM) without dating when it was suddenly decided to have them get married. Prior to that decision there was no main love interest in the series. In those first 25 years there's no character you could point to as the main love interest.

By the time they were married in the comics, Spider-Man had already had three cartoon series and one live action series (excluding the Japanese one) but Mary Jane wasn't featured in any of them (aside from a single episode of the '60s cartoon, where she was Captain Stacy's niece).

(Let's be honest, Firestar in Amazing Friends basically was "MJ as superhero.")

I never said she wasn't.

I said that she wasn't half of the Spider-Man mythos. I said that she wasn't essential.

I'd say she became essential through the natural course of the story. That's why people ask about her so much. People don't act like this with Deb Whitman.

[Lee]

Uh, because they wanted to keep her appearance a secret to the reader. Not because they thought, "well this character will never be important to Spider-Man." Plus, Spidey's earliest days DON'T just include the Ditko run. Romita was just as important to Spider-Man as Ditko was. Trying to pretend that characters introduced under Romita are somehow "less" important is ridiculous.

Obviously it varies from character to character. The Shocker ended up becoming a more recognisable part of the Spider-Man mythos than The Looter, for example.

But overall, Ditko was more important to Spider-Man than Romita. Steve Ditko and Stan Lee laid down the foundation and built the house. Romita added a nice extentsion, but it was still a fully formed house before he came along.

Kingpin, Rhino, Mary Jane, Hammerhead, George Stacy, the Robertsons, etc are all classic Spider-Man characters. Cumulatively, Spider-Man would not be the same without them. Kingpin was even one of the main villains of the 90s animated series. So again, don't get the idea that a character coming after the original creative team can't become essential to a franchise or at least become a so important to it that the franchise would not be successful without them.

I'm sure if you pulled out just one of Ditko's creations, like Vulture or Scorpion, you could say "Spider-Man would still be Spider-Man," but (1) why would you and (2) it kind of misses the point that cumulatively, the contributions over the years are what make a creator invaluable to the series.

Bet we better stop saying that Venom, Jackal, and Hobglobin are classic Spidey villains then, huh. And I guess Poison Ivy, Riddler, Bane, Harley Quinn, Ra's al Ghul, Man-Bat etc. are not important to the Batman franchise, since none of them were created by Bob Kane.

I'm not arguing that they aren't important characters to the mythos. All I said was that Spider-Man was a fully formed series before Romita's began his run.

(I don't think you could have picked a worse example than Bob Kane though. Look up Bill Finger and the history of Batman.)

It really isn't. Mary Jane is Peter's most enduring love interest.

I know. I never said she wasn't.

I'd say to a lot of people, Mary Jane is essential to Peter. As I outlined above, their relationship played out in such a dynamic story about a guy bouncing back from tragedy to find true love again that yes, Spider-Man comics and the franchise as we know it wouldn't be the same without it.

But it would still be recognisably Spider-Man.

This makes it seem like she's a lesser character because she was designed by Romita.

If you go back to my original post, you'll see that I was saying that Mary Jane only made a cameo in what I (and many other comics fans) consider to be the definitive run. If you can have a definitive take on a franchise without X then X surely is not essential.

I don't recall saying I thought she was "half the mythos" (seems like an arbitrary value placed on a singular supporting character, no matter how significant they are.)

You didn't say that. My original post wasn't a response to you. I don't know why you're spending time on these rebuttals if you actually agree with my original point - that Mary Jane is not 50% of the Spider-Man mythos.

These are the posts I originally responded to:

For me the most important supporting character, more than even May, is MJ.
I started reading the comics during the marriage in the early 90's and that existed until 2007.

In my mind Mary Jane is the other half of the Spider-Man mythos, and she's iconic in her own right.
But unfortunately these days, Marvel is doing everything in their power to sideline or reinvent her beyond all recognition (Homecoming).

I thinks the same way. Mary Jane is THE most important and significant supporting character Spider Man has had, has or ever will hae far above the likes of May or Jameson.

What is more atrocious is the supposed rumors that MJ will become Iron Jane or Iron Spider in further service to Iron Man. Disgusting. I'd rather she be in limbo than used like that.

tl;dr - Mary Jane is a major character, but she isn't half of the Spider-Man mythos. You can have a great Spider-Man run without her.

[Frontier]

But overall, Ditko was more important to Spider-Man than Romita. Steve Ditko and Stan Lee laid down the foundation and built the house. Romita added a nice extentsion, but it was still a fully formed house before he came along.

I think it would be accurate to say that Romita took that foundation and added some essential elements to it that livened up the whole, as well as streamlining it into a more appealing form for people to look at. Especially considering more of his elements and styles tend to get emphasis over certain Ditko elements (May, Jonah, and the villains being the noticeable exception).

I think Spider-Man would be very different if Romita had not come in.

[Kevinroc]

If you go back to my original post, you'll see that I was saying that Mary Jane only made a cameo in what I (and many other comics fans) consider to be the definitive run. If you can have a definitive take on a franchise without X then X surely is not essential.

So does the identity of the Green Goblin not matter? He wasn't revealed to be Norman Osborn until after Romita took over.

tl;dr - Mary Jane is a major character, but she isn't half of the Spider-Man mythos. You can have a great Spider-Man run without her.

Why weaken your run by purposefully excluding a great and popular Spider-Man supporting character?

[Lee]

I think it would be accurate to say that Romita took that foundation and added some essential elements to it that livened up the whole, as well as streamlining it into a more appealing form for people to look at. Especially considering more of his elements and styles tend to get emphasis over certain Ditko elements (May, Jonah, and the villains being the noticeable exception).

I think Spider-Man would be very different if Romita had not come in.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man, the costume, the origin, the powers, the web swinging, the gadgets, the photography, the New York City setting, Aunt May, Uncle Ben, the Daily Bugle, J Jonah Jameson, John Jameson, Betty, Flash, Liz, Ned Leeds, Curt Connors, Spencer Smythe, Frederick Foswell, Norman, Harry, Gwen, Anna Watson, Midtown High, Empire State University, Green Goblin, Doctor Octopus, Chameleon, Lizard, Electro, Vulture, Sandman, Scorpion, Kraven, Molten Man, Mysterio. Then there are the visual cues like the classic Spider-Man poses and the "web shooting" fingers, plus all the thematic stuff like a victory for Spider-Man being a loss for Peter, being hated and misrepresented by the media etc. All in the Steve Ditko & Stan Lee run.

Romita added some good stuff, some popular and enduring stuff, but the fundamentals, the essential elements, were already in place.

[Lee]

So does the identity of the Green Goblin not matter? He wasn't revealed to be Norman Osborn until after Romita took over.

Ohmygod. What are we even talking about anymore?

Why weaken your run by purposefully excluding a great and popular Spider-Man supporting character?

Seriously. What are we even talking about? I never ever ever ever said that writers should exclude Mary Jane from their runs on the title. All I said was that she wasn't essential and wasn't "half the Spider-Man mythos".

[dragonmp93]

Ohmygod. What are we even talking about anymore?



Seriously. What are we even talking about? I never ever ever ever said that writers should exclude Mary Jane from their runs on the title. All I said was that she wasn't essential and wasn't "half the Spider-Man mythos".

That Spider-Man still Spider-Man even after being a rich CEO and making a deal with a demon after Aunt May got shot because of listening to Iron Man's ideas.

spoilers:

You know, i wonder that if at the end of Homecoming, Peter had said yes, and Aunt May getting shot after that; what could Peter sell to Mephisto in this universe ?.

end of spoilers