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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This such a bad opinion that I can't help but comment on it, DC women have narratives of their own okay put them in a book with their male counterpart which them disappear and this is after solo years of character work. No DC female character will get priority over in a story over a their male gender flip and vast majority are that. DC women are real characters until are put in situation with their male counterpart which tend to be important stories. You want to see Wonder Woman disappear put in her a meaningful story with Superman and Batman. You want see Batgirl,Huntress and Catwoman disappear put them in a event book with Batman. What is the point of "strong complete character" if they are useless around a more popular male character in important stories. I am not trying to bash DC woman either DC has the same problem described by poster in a different form but hey at least DC has historically support female solo books right?

    The Marvel problem described was exaggerated. Storm plays second fiddle to Wolverine and Cyclops but Cyclops and Wolverine haved play second fiddle Storm, Jean Grey, Emma, Kitty as well. Cyclops and Wolverine are back from dead so yeah they are going to get some focus. But who was leading in during those years when Xavier, Cyclops, and Wolverine were dead that is right Storm and then Kitty. Think about that is like the Justice League killing Batman and Superman leaving it in hands of Wonder Woman and Mera for 5 years. When has DC show faith in female characters to carry a line like that? You mention Storm in Hox and Pox but you fail to mention that Moria was the person with most page time in that series. Window dressing? Psylocke is leading Excalibur, Kitty and Emma leading the Marauders, I am pretty sure Moonstar or Magik is co leading New Mutants, Kwannon is the focus of Fallen Angels, Moria is getting a solo in Wave 2. Remember when I said DC females vast majority where a gender flip well Marvel has joined that trend with Valkyrie, X-23, Ms Marvel, Ghost Spider, Shuri, Ironheart, Wasp, Gwenpool which has had very degrees of success. Marvel has also Moon Girl, Black Cat, Squirrel Girl and Aero out.

    Both of the companies are flawed in how they have handle females. DC gets better marks for solo projects with females, Marvel gets better marks for using Women in high profile stuff and women in leadership. Both need to do better. So to answer question why is DC heroines more popular than Marvel because DC was better at flip and spinning off female version of popular concept, Something Marvel has done as well with characters like Ghost Spider, X23, and Valkyrie now.
    True. It's very creator dependent as well. Claremont was great with Ororo, Jean, and Kitty in a team context. Early New Mutants stories often revolved around Dani the rebel, and then Magik. Whedon's run on X-Men was mainly about Kitty, which makes sense for a guy who invented Buffy as his version of Kitty. Byrne told lots of Sue-centric stories in FF. Englehart loved Mantis in Avengers. Mantlo took Brandy on a journey in ROM. Morrison made Emma a focus character. Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel have done a great job as solo characters in recent years; Carol, not so much.

    Memorable female arcs at DC? Wolfman paid attention to the ladies in NTT. Amethyst had a decent initial run but then languished. The threeboot Legion built major arcs around Dream Girl, Supergirl, and Projectra. Beyond that, it's mostly just Harley being an obnoxiously ubiquitous agent of chaos.

    Bottom line, most comics writers are dudes who have affinity with dude characters. Give more writing work to Willow Wilson, Jill Thompson, Colleen Doran, Wendy Pini, Ann Nocenti, etc. Maybe we'll see more memorable stories about the female characters then. Or shell out for outside talent like Connie Willis and Lois McMaster Bujold to enter the fray.

  2. #137
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't know if Spider-Man quite works for that comparison if only because his supporting cast is often as colorful and vivacious as he is.
    Yes, Spiderman has a highly colourful and interesting set of secondary characters. But compare Spiderman and Batman as characters. Spiderman has far more character and far more personal touches than Batman: Peter Parker is literally a kid next door in a way that most of DC's heroes aren't.

    That Stan Lee and Jack Kirby assembled a huge and engaging cast around him has surely contributed to his popularity, but doesn't really change the general tendency that Marvel worked much more to give their superheroes memorable personalities, while especially early DC put that effort into the supporting cast.

    And there is another partial exception, but on the DC side: Wonder Woman. While original Etta certainly fits the interesting sidekick mold, Steve Trevor was as bland as they came, while Diana was given quite the vibrant personality (at least for the time when she was created).
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBerman View Post
    True. It's very creator dependent as well. Claremont was great with Ororo, Jean, and Kitty in a team context. Early New Mutants stories often revolved around Dani the rebel, and then Magik. Whedon's run on X-Men was mainly about Kitty, which makes sense for a guy who invented Buffy as his version of Kitty. Byrne told lots of Sue-centric stories in FF. Englehart loved Mantis in Avengers. Mantlo took Brandy on a journey in ROM. Morrison made Emma a focus character. Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel have done a great job as solo characters in recent years; Carol, not so much.

    Memorable female arcs at DC? Wolfman paid attention to the ladies in NTT. Amethyst had a decent initial run but then languished. The threeboot Legion built major arcs around Dream Girl, Supergirl, and Projectra. Beyond that, it's mostly just Harley being an obnoxiously ubiquitous agent of chaos.

    Bottom line, most comics writers are dudes who have affinity with dude characters. Give more writing work to Willow Wilson, Jill Thompson, Colleen Doran, Wendy Pini, Ann Nocenti, etc. Maybe we'll see more memorable stories about the female characters then. Or shell out for outside talent like Connie Willis and Lois McMaster Bujold to enter the fray.
    Peter David's Young Justice gave a lot of focus to the female characters especially Wonder Girl, the Linda Danvers Supergirl and Cassandra Cain Batgirl arcs were also well received. Wonder Woman has had a number of memorable stories, Greg Rucka's always reliable when it comes to female characters for DC and made Sasha Bordeaux a focus character almost every time he used her. Mera has been a breakout character in Aquaman since Geoff Johns and has been the most important character to the Aquaman stories after Arthur himself. And there's the recently created and very popular Jessica Cruz.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    DC in general seems to be more individualistic then Marvel who seems to be more team centered. The Justice league always felt more like a group of individuals that got together while the Avengers always felt more like a team. In the DCU heroes tend to have their own cities, while at Marvel heroes tend to congregate at certain places.
    That last is certainly true! In Marvel, New York City is *crawling* with super-heroes!

    The previous bit as well. It felt like the Avengers cropped up really fast after Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk and Ant-Man debuted, compared to how long Superman, Batman, etc. worked as solo heroes before assembling into the League, and even after that, Superman and Batman have *always* had strong solo books, while Iron Man and the Hulk, not so much.

    I think it’s a result of how each universe was created. Marvel was essentially created by a small group of people in a relatively short period of time. DC on the other hand could be thought of as a bunch of free standing characters that were patched together after the fact.
    Agreed. Some of the founding Avengers haven't even *had* a solo book yet, as far as I know (Hank Pym or Janet van Dyne), let alone one that's run for decades, where as even non-Trinity Leaguers like the Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman have had significant runs (Martian Manhunter being the exception?).

    And this plays into the thread's focus. If so many Avengers haven't even had solo stories, then, it stands to reason, that entirely not enough *female* Avengers have had solos. There is no 'Wonder Woman' on the Avengers, and Carol Danvers is a late, late entry to the game, attempting to play catch-up to someone with many decades of history on her.

    There *should* have been Wasp or Scarlet Witch solos decades ago. Even today, 'the Wasp' solo isn't about Janet van Dyne, but a new character, with is just awkward, after 50-odd years of waiting...
    Last edited by Sutekh; 10-17-2019 at 09:14 AM.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    DC in general seems to be more individualistic then Marvel who seems to be more team centered. The Justice league always felt more like a group of individuals that got together while the Avengers always felt more like a team. In the DCU heroes tend to have their own cities, while at Marvel heroes tend to congregate at certain places. Their is a lot more sharing of rogues at Marvel then at DC.

    I think it’s a result of how each universe was created. Marvel was essentially created by a small group of people in a relatively short period of time. DC on the other hand could be thought of as a bunch of free standing characters that were patched together after the fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    That last is certainly true! In Marvel, New York City is *crawling* with super-heroes!
    Try telling this to the people complaining about there being too many Kryptonians or too many superheroes in Gotham.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-17-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  6. #141
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Peter David's Young Justice gave a lot of focus to the female characters especially Wonder Girl, the Linda Danvers Supergirl and Cassandra Cain Batgirl arcs were also well received. Wonder Woman has had a number of memorable stories, Greg Rucka's always reliable when it comes to female characters for DC and made Sasha Bordeaux a focus character almost every time he used her. Mera has been a breakout character in Aquaman since Geoff Johns and has been the most important character to the Aquaman stories after Arthur himself. And there's the recently created and very popular Jessica Cruz.
    Let's not forget Dixon's and Simone's runs on Birds of Prey, Connor and Palmiotti on Power Girl and Terra and Starfire, Dini on Zatanna, Andreyko on Manhunter, Rucka on Lois Lane, etc.

  7. #142
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    DC in general seems to be more individualistic then Marvel who seems to be more team centered. The Justice league always felt more like a group of individuals that got together while the Avengers always felt more like a team. In the DCU heroes tend to have their own cities, while at Marvel heroes tend to congregate at certain places. Their is a lot more sharing of rogues at Marvel then at DC.

    I think it’s a result of how each universe was created. Marvel was essentially created by a small group of people in a relatively short period of time. DC on the other hand could be thought of as a bunch of free standing characters that were patched together after the fact.
    The Teen Titans came to my mind, because I get the feeling that Starfire and Raven are strongly closely recognized as being attached to the Teen Titans more than as individual characters, but yeah, by and large, DC seems more individualistic.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Try telling this to the people complaining about there being too many Kryptonians or too many superheroes in Gotham.
    Most of those characters in Gotham, are either sidekicks or characters directly inspired by Batman. Marvel’s New York is entirely different. At Marvel we are expected to believe all these Unrelated scientific accidents, mutations, and paranormal activities all seem to conspire to flood one city with superheroes.

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