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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It isn't that simple though is it? She weighed up her options when she first picked up Mjolnir, not knowing that she was going to be seduced by a malevolent force that she thinks is benign. Right back at the start of her story as Thor, some of us were pointing out that even being Thor was having a psychological effect upon her, with her thoughts not quite matching her speech. That may have been enough to seduce her. But Aaron has doubled down on that seduction theme, by apparently retconning Mjolnir. He was using misdirection, making some people think he was rewriting how Mjolnir actually worked, and certainly having Jane fall for that idea.

    In reality Aaron was throwing a separate agent into the story as an antagonist. He wasn't making Mjolnir sentient, he was having it become possessed. A latent possession that has only come to the fore recently. Jane has no idea that Mjolnir isn't acting similar to how it has always acted. For all she knows it always talked to its wielder, always acted under its on agency, and always acted as a friendly helper. Just when she was about to get into a conversation with Odinson, who was surprised to learn that it spoke to her, she was called into action by the storm, who really doesn't want that conversation to occur. Luckily Odinson has expressed some suspicion, and may put two and two together when he sees War Thor in action.

    In other words, Odinson may become the protagonist towards the end of this story.
    Yes. Any non-traditional abilities, etc. that the hammer has shown during Jane's run as Thor could easily be explained by the hammer being different. The misdirection was used to make us all think it was because the Thor was different, but there have been enough hints throughout the run that this "reveal" (it's a more gradual reveal, so I wouldn't say it's 100% canon, but it seems like its working towards making it explicit) isn't coming from left field. In fact, it makes a lot of the seemingly out of left field information about Mjolnir from earlier issues make more sense within continuity.

    This could also make sense within the larger context (I'm thinking Secret Empire, specifically)--we don't know what the Mother Storm's motives are, but knowing it has its own agenda and a sinister side is likely what enabled Cap to pick it up. Not because he's traditionally "worthy", but because the hammer itself is corrupted. And the imagery of a storm is very much washing away and destroying what already exists for a new start (think of Noah's ark, or the Egyptian Nile). Which also makes sense within the destruction coming to the ten realms. We see a (more advanced?) version of it with the Ultimate Hammer, but the Librarian warned early on that 1) not everything was as it seemed and 2) that there would be much death and destruction (can't exactly recall the wording, here). Which could also tie into why they haven't actually been able to stop Malekith--note that the hammer has made Jane act more rashly: the hammer wants the war. Which is terrifying, but ties back into the idea of magic requiring a price, and myths being written in blood.

    Odinson is currently angry at the hammer, but his moods tend to be tempestuous. After all, he was just made at Thor. Hopefully, he stops to use his head (I've always read him as being rather intelligent if he actually bothers, but extremely impulsive and stubborn). However, this has become Jane's battle much more so than his. Now, I'm actually hoping that she is brought back to life as part of the effort to kick the damn possessor out of the hammer. I'd dislike it if she were merely a pawn the entire time.

    Edit: This actually shows a strong parallel between Mjolnir and Cap. Both have the status in (and even out) of universe as being the sort of the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong. Both have become so relied upon in universe that people have become accustomed to taking their "word" as law instead of using their own agency. This ties it strongly into the meta-narrative we're seeing with Secret Empire. Also parallels the blind obedience people have to them with facism, which demands blind obedience from the populus...*Geeks out*
    Last edited by Riimi; 07-21-2017 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genji View Post
    But Ultimate Mjolnir From Battleword Talk to Odinson and Volstagg by Telepathy How U Explain That.
    We don't really know exactly what happened here. Yes we know it is from Battleworld, but it certainly isn't like the Mjölnir from 1610. Or at least not the technological one, there may of course be a mythological one I am not aware of because I haven't read any Ultimate Thor stories.

    Either way, it seems a parrellel reality Mjölnir was being weilded by 1610 Thor on Battleworld, and it was also endowed with a storm. A very different incarnation of that primal storm, but similar in lots of ways. That storm was abandoned by Ultimate Thor's death and sought out a return to that Thor's Asgard in a hope of finding him again. Unfortunately 1610 Thor's universe no longer exists as its own place, but was merged with the 616 to create the new Prime Universe we know as the Marvel Universe. So it ended up here.



    Mjolnir was even made by Odin
    Technically, it was made by dwarves then enchanted by Odin. Anyways, the newest retcon is that the mjolnir was actually made as basically a prison for the Godstorm, a sentient cosmic super-storm that Odin had to use all of his powers and barely survived just to contain it.
    Careful. We know something like this happened, but we only have second hand info. Odin hasn't told us anything, and I think he will end up telling a slightly different story.

    The worthiness enchantment was just Odin's way of locking the Godstorm inside and keeping anyone from being able to access its power. So Mjolnir is actually sentient and Mjolnir/the Godstorm is who decides whether you're worthy or not.
    I very much doubt the worthiness enchantment has anything to do with the storm. I expect it to be entirely seperate and I don't think the storm has any say over who can weild Mjolnir, and it may not have any say over what powers such an individual weilds. Instead I believe the storm is using the powers of the Mjolnir enchantment for its own ends. The storm may be an antagonist, but it is entirely possible that it is worthy itself. It may have used the power to transform to shapeshift into Thor. This is possibly why it can fly for example (a contentious issue in Thor canon).


    I'm assuming Fury's whisper was less to Thor and more to Mjolnir/the Godstorm itself thus causing Mjolnir to decide that no God should be able to pick it up. But as you mentioned, That Fury's whisper is what causes this since "Gorr was right" is an opinion and not a statement of fact regardless of how much secret knowledge Fury had from the Watcher.
    While this is a common theory I don't think it is true. It certainly isn't compatible with my theory that the enchantment and the storm are seperate.

    I think it's generally fine reasoning for why no god can lift mjolnir (while Volstagg and presumably Thor Odinson can lift Ultimate Mjolnir which also has a worthiness enchantment but no godstorm) if you can get past the conceit that somehow Fury's whisper was so powerful that it was able to do this, but that is a pretty fucking bad conceit that even the shittiest of writers or editors should have been able to poke enough holes through to that point that Aaron should have come up with something else. But whatever, what's done is done. I'm just going to no-prize it that Fury's whisper was literally powered by super-cosmic magic and We Need move on.
    Please refrain from extreme value judgements about writers. It is against the etiquette of the forum.

    In general I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what the whisper is all about, and why it has had such a strong effect on Odinson. But I believe that will all be revisited later on in the run, so it probably isn't worth getting into detail now. My opinions have been fully expressed in other threads.

    Idont like Jason Aaron Now Firts He Make Our Original Thor Mess His Life And Second Now He Killing Jane All new Fans will get Upset for sure.

    I like Jane Even She not Thor anymore at Least Make her Live And Odinson Will Be Thor Again with Wield Dual Hammer The Mjolnir and Ultimate Mjolnir.
    I suspect your fears about the future of Jane as Thor are unlikely to come to fruition. But we have a lot of story to go before we get there, and she will at least die very soon. Death in Thor comics is usually an interesting story twist, not an end.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-21-2017 at 08:17 AM.

  3. #33
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    Edit: This actually shows a strong parallel between Mjolnir and Cap. Both have the status in (and even out) of universe as being the sort of the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong. Both have become so relied upon in universe that people have become accustomed to taking their "word" as law instead of using their own agency. This ties it strongly into the meta-narrative we're seeing with Secret Empire. Also parallels the blind obedience people have to them with facism, which demands blind obedience from the populus...*Geeks out*
    That's really interesting. I'd been thinking about how it's going to affect Cap in the long-term, his aura of authority, the automatic (and sometimes blind) respect and obedience he gets being twisted into a tool of fascism and dictatorship, but hadn't considered how Mjolnir has similarly been used as a 'worthiness-checker' at times to judge people's values, and then sort of blithely accepted (as in the case of Beta Ray Bill, whom Thor and Odin accepted as a pure and noble soul, worthy of his own Thor-hammer and Thor-powers, pretty much because Mjolnir said so).

    If that's what's happening here, a 'deconstruction' of the blind obedience / acceptance of this sort is certainly more interesting, to me, than somebody's powers going out of control, or an evil version of X appearing, or some sort of inversion event where good-guys go bad.

    Very interesting thoughts, Riimi!

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    That's really interesting. I'd been thinking about how it's going to affect Cap in the long-term, his aura of authority, the automatic (and sometimes blind) respect and obedience he gets being twisted into a tool of fascism and dictatorship, but hadn't considered how Mjolnir has similarly been used as a 'worthiness-checker' at times to judge people's values, and then sort of blithely accepted (as in the case of Beta Ray Bill, whom Thor and Odin accepted as a pure and noble soul, worthy of his own Thor-hammer and Thor-powers, pretty much because Mjolnir said so).

    If that's what's happening here, a 'deconstruction' of the blind obedience / acceptance of this sort is certainly more interesting, to me, than somebody's powers going out of control, or an evil version of X appearing, or some sort of inversion event where good-guys go bad.

    Very interesting thoughts, Riimi!
    Spencer has talked about how he wanted that scene to be a coût complet. He needed to make that battle decisive and very fast and the best way he could think of was to have Steve weild the hammer. It acts as a symbol of authority. Even with doubts about Steve, watching him lift the hammer has to give you pause.

    I agree something is very fishy about that move. Apparently Spencer consulted with Aaron, which of course is normal etiquette for these things, and Aaron helped Spencer with how it could be made to work. Personally I think it was an illusion. I suspect the storm levitated the hammer in order to make it look like Steve was worthy.

    It is entirely possible that the recent scenes of Mjolnir floating around getting Jane's attention were written after this conversation, in order to tie everything together.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-21-2017 at 09:00 AM.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    Yes. Any non-traditional abilities, etc. that the hammer has shown during Jane's run as Thor could easily be explained by the hammer being different. The misdirection was used to make us all think it was because the Thor was different, but there have been enough hints throughout the run that this "reveal" (it's a more gradual reveal, so I wouldn't say it's 100% canon, but it seems like its working towards making it explicit) isn't coming from left field. In fact, it makes a lot of the seemingly out of left field information about Mjolnir from earlier issues make more sense within continuity.

    This could also make sense within the larger context (I'm thinking Secret Empire, specifically)--we don't know what the Mother Storm's motives are, but knowing it has its own agenda and a sinister side is likely what enabled Cap to pick it up. Not because he's traditionally "worthy", but because the hammer itself is corrupted. And the imagery of a storm is very much washing away and destroying what already exists for a new start (think of Noah's ark, or the Egyptian Nile). Which also makes sense within the destruction coming to the ten realms. We see a (more advanced?) version of it with the Ultimate Hammer, but the Librarian warned early on that 1) not everything was as it seemed and 2) that there would be much death and destruction (can't exactly recall the wording, here). Which could also tie into why they haven't actually been able to stop Malekith--note that the hammer has made Jane act more rashly: the hammer wants the war. Which is terrifying, but ties back into the idea of magic requiring a price, and myths being written in blood.

    Odinson is currently angry at the hammer, but his moods tend to be tempestuous. After all, he was just made at Thor. Hopefully, he stops to use his head (I've always read him as being rather intelligent if he actually bothers, but extremely impulsive and stubborn). However, this has become Jane's battle much more so than his. Now, I'm actually hoping that she is brought back to life as part of the effort to kick the damn possessor out of the hammer. I'd dislike it if she were merely a pawn the entire time.

    Edit: This actually shows a strong parallel between Mjolnir and Cap. Both have the status in (and even out) of universe as being the sort of the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong. Both have become so relied upon in universe that people have become accustomed to taking their "word" as law instead of using their own agency. This ties it strongly into the meta-narrative we're seeing with Secret Empire. Also parallels the blind obedience people have to them with facism, which demands blind obedience from the populus...*Geeks out*
    Interesting thoughts. Kind of puts things in a new perspective i hadn't quite considered. it definitely makes sense, though. And Aaron has often been critical of blind faith, too, so I can easily see him going down that path with the Mjolnir story.

    And yes, it was a slow reveal. At first when the Mother Storm aspect was revealed, I was... not so hot on the idea. But now that it's more sinister side is coming to light, it's becoming a lot more interesting to think of the hammer not just as a character, but as the hidden villain of the story. One that has been hiding in plain sight all along. The signs were there from the beginning, if you look back, but it was a sort of slow drip of one kinda shady thing after another. I saw from early on that Mjolnir was acting independently at times, and that Jane acted and spoke differently under it's influence. She seemed extra judgemental and quick to fight. But because the change wasn't as overt as it is with Volstagg, it was hard to say if this was anything that was necessarily bad or not. Until the fight with Odin, that seemed.... over the top. And the flashback story about how the storm was trapped, and how violent and unpredictable it was. And the reveal about her cancer, and that Mjolnir was preventing her chemo from working. And it is telepathic, so it KNEW this. Now this scene where she is on death's door, and it's still come to snatch her away. Separately, these don't necessarily mean a lot, but when they are all put together... Mjolnir starts to look more sinister.

    the only thing left to be explained is.... why is it showing itself NOW? when it was in Odinson's hands, it didn't display these same qualities, he seemed shocked that it spoke to her, that it acted independently in her hands but never had in his own. What is it about him that kept the storm i check all this time? or, alternately, what is it about Jane that set it loose?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    the only thing left to be explained is.... why is it showing itself NOW? when it was in Odinson's hands, it didn't display these same qualities, he seemed shocked that it spoke to her, that it acted independently in her hands but never had in his own. What is it about him that kept the storm i check all this time? or, alternately, what is it about Jane that set it loose?
    I don't think it was Jane that set it loose, I think it was Fury.

    He wasn't talking to Thor. He was whispering his secret to Mjolnir, that 'Gorr was right' and gods aren't all that relevant (and that, the obvious follow-through to that, Mjolnir doesn't have to do what Thor, or Odin, for that matter, says).

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I don't think it was Jane that set it loose, I think it was Fury.

    He wasn't talking to Thor. He was whispering his secret to Mjolnir, that 'Gorr was right' and gods aren't all that relevant (and that, the obvious follow-through to that, Mjolnir doesn't have to do what Thor, or Odin, for that matter, says).
    I suspect Feyja woke it up inadvertently, by trying to manipulate the enchantment. Or she weakened the enchantment in some way.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    That's really interesting. I'd been thinking about how it's going to affect Cap in the long-term, his aura of authority, the automatic (and sometimes blind) respect and obedience he gets being twisted into a tool of fascism and dictatorship, but hadn't considered how Mjolnir has similarly been used as a 'worthiness-checker' at times to judge people's values, and then sort of blithely accepted (as in the case of Beta Ray Bill, whom Thor and Odin accepted as a pure and noble soul, worthy of his own Thor-hammer and Thor-powers, pretty much because Mjolnir said so).

    If that's what's happening here, a 'deconstruction' of the blind obedience / acceptance of this sort is certainly more interesting, to me, than somebody's powers going out of control, or an evil version of X appearing, or some sort of inversion event where good-guys go bad.

    Very interesting thoughts, Riimi!


    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Spencer has talked about how he wanted that scene to be a coût complet. He needed to make that battle decisive and very fast and the best way he could think of was to have Steve weild the hammer. It acts as a symbol of authority. Even with doubts about Steve, watching him lift the hammer has to give you pause.

    I agree something is very fishy about that move. Apparently Spencer consulted with Aaron, which of course is normal etiquette for these things, and Aaron helped Spencer with how it could be made to work. Personally I think it was an illusion. I suspect the storm levitated the hammer in order to make it look like Steve was worthy.

    It is entirely possible that the recent scenes of Mjolnir floating around getting Jane's attention were written after this conversation, in order to tie everything together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Kind of puts things in a new perspective i hadn't quite considered. it definitely makes sense, though. And Aaron has often been critical of blind faith, too, so I can easily see him going down that path with the Mjolnir story.

    And yes, it was a slow reveal. At first when the Mother Storm aspect was revealed, I was... not so hot on the idea. But now that it's more sinister side is coming to light, it's becoming a lot more interesting to think of the hammer not just as a character, but as the hidden villain of the story. One that has been hiding in plain sight all along. The signs were there from the beginning, if you look back, but it was a sort of slow drip of one kinda shady thing after another. I saw from early on that Mjolnir was acting independently at times, and that Jane acted and spoke differently under it's influence. She seemed extra judgemental and quick to fight. But because the change wasn't as overt as it is with Volstagg, it was hard to say if this was anything that was necessarily bad or not. Until the fight with Odin, that seemed.... over the top. And the flashback story about how the storm was trapped, and how violent and unpredictable it was. And the reveal about her cancer, and that Mjolnir was preventing her chemo from working. And it is telepathic, so it KNEW this. Now this scene where she is on death's door, and it's still come to snatch her away. Separately, these don't necessarily mean a lot, but when they are all put together... Mjolnir starts to look more sinister.

    the only thing left to be explained is.... why is it showing itself NOW? when it was in Odinson's hands, it didn't display these same qualities, he seemed shocked that it spoke to her, that it acted independently in her hands but never had in his own. What is it about him that kept the storm i check all this time? or, alternately, what is it about Jane that set it loose?
    Thanks for all the discussion! I didn't realize this myself until I started reading the thread--especially the point about Jane refusing magic and then blatantly accepting it with Mjolnir seconds later.

    Looking back, Spencer and Aaron have been sort of investigating similar things in parallel for a while. I suspect Aaron may be going for a bit more moral relativism/the question of whether there is an "absolute morality" whereas Spencer is going more for the point that we should never accept based on blind faith, but there's a lot of overlap. I don't think it was planned ahead of time, and may not have even been something either of them realized before Spencer wrote that scene (or shortly beforehand). Not to discount them as writers, by any means--their recent work has given me the utmost respect for both of them, it's just that they've been so incredibly busy in their own spheres and with their own storylines. I think good authors who flesh out their work can become aware of details to use as foreshadowing/motifs, even if that wasn't the original intent.

    Whether or not they realized it in retrospect or planned it from the start, it does give Legacy a lot more validity, imo, to be what spins out of Secret Empire. Before now, I couldn't really see a similar thread between them. (And yes, I remember reading that Spencer did ask Aaron for permission; I could see that getting them talking). Which is partly why I brought it up in this thread: the current storyline seems to be spinning into a prevalent meta-narrative.

  10. #40
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    I found myself skipping quickly to the end of this issue. Dautermann is the issue that makes this work. Without him, it just seems silly, loud, and a bit dull tbh. The panel/page designs arent as inventive, the fantastical elements dont spring to life, the action has no weight or verve, the character "acting" phony and ordinary.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    I found myself skipping quickly to the end of this issue. Dautermann is the issue that makes this work. Without him, it just seems silly, loud, and a bit dull tbh. The panel/page designs arent as inventive, the fantastical elements dont spring to life, the action has no weight or verve, the character "acting" phony and ordinary.
    In his defence, it isn't the easiest task, to pick up a book, use another artist's strong design choices, build a relationship with a writer on short notice, and produce an issue to stand alongside an artist that has carved his own place in that role. I think he did a solid job.

  12. #42
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Kind of puts things in a new perspective i hadn't quite considered. it definitely makes sense, though. And Aaron has often been critical of blind faith, too, so I can easily see him going down that path with the Mjolnir story.

    And yes, it was a slow reveal. At first when the Mother Storm aspect was revealed, I was... not so hot on the idea. But now that it's more sinister side is coming to light, it's becoming a lot more interesting to think of the hammer not just as a character, but as the hidden villain of the story. One that has been hiding in plain sight all along. The signs were there from the beginning, if you look back, but it was a sort of slow drip of one kinda shady thing after another. I saw from early on that Mjolnir was acting independently at times, and that Jane acted and spoke differently under it's influence. She seemed extra judgemental and quick to fight. But because the change wasn't as overt as it is with Volstagg, it was hard to say if this was anything that was necessarily bad or not. Until the fight with Odin, that seemed.... over the top. And the flashback story about how the storm was trapped, and how violent and unpredictable it was. And the reveal about her cancer, and that Mjolnir was preventing her chemo from working. And it is telepathic, so it KNEW this. Now this scene where she is on death's door, and it's still come to snatch her away. Separately, these don't necessarily mean a lot, but when they are all put together... Mjolnir starts to look more sinister.

    the only thing left to be explained is.... why is it showing itself NOW? when it was in Odinson's hands, it didn't display these same qualities, he seemed shocked that it spoke to her, that it acted independently in her hands but never had in his own. What is it about him that kept the storm i check all this time? or, alternately, what is it about Jane that set it loose?
    Hmmm, I hadn't considered tying Jane's story into the whole blind belief in religion stuff that has been going on. But It makes so much sense I feel a bit stupid for not noticing. Jane has always shown complete faith in Odinson. It has been 'hammered' (pardon the pun) over numerous times how she thinks he is worthy regardless of how he sees himself. He, in turn, has overwhelming reverence for Mjolnir - so logically she would accept Mjolnir much more easily (and even more so with Mjolnir's 'seduction').

    The last paragraph above is something I've been wondering about for a while.

    Also, we are explicitly told at the end of this issue why Jane is worthy. Just like at the end of the God Bomb we are explicitly told why Odinson is worthy. They are different reasons. Anyone got a theory as to why?

    And as someone who was thinking (perhaps hoping) that Mjolnir was benevolent - I don't think that at all now after this issue.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Reading comics with a smile on your face is far easier you know

    Lol ☺

    Well when that happens at marvel ill be sure to say 😉

    I do keep hanging in there just in case but they keep dropping the books I like

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I don't see this at all. Mjolnir is exactly the same as it has always been, just that right now it is under the influence of something that has been laying dormant for most of continuity. I will be aghast if that storm doesn't get thrown out of the hammer at the end of this whole arc. It is slowly being revealed as a villain, and villains tend to loose in comic books. So that ending perfectly resets Mjolnir. Ultimate Mjolnir will probably fall through the cracks for other writers to pick up on later.

    As for Odinson, lets wait and see. I am excited to see where the plot is taking him. I foresee an epic revival at some point down the line. One that defines him for a new era.
    Hopefully not as jokey as MCU Thor

    Tho I feel that's where he is headed

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    I found myself skipping quickly to the end of this issue. Dautermann is the issue that makes this work. Without him, it just seems silly, loud, and a bit dull tbh. The panel/page designs arent as inventive, the fantastical elements dont spring to life, the action has no weight or verve, the character "acting" phony and ordinary.
    Disagree completely. Dauterman and Wilson are certainly tops at Marvel, but Schiti is no amateur, he's fantastic.

    How dare you disparage his art?

    Jk.....mostly

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