Superman in Doomsday Clock

[Ascended]

I wonder if the Flashpoint-New52 reasoning of "preparing the DCU for a terrible threat" still holds? Been a long while so my memory might be wrong, but......Pandora combined Vertigo, WildStorm, and DC because the DCU wasn't "tough" enough to handle a vague, oncoming threat right? Then in the Rebirth special, we find out that Pandora has been working for Manhattan (right before he destroys her) which would indicate that he's actually trying to accomplish something good (even though his methods aren't). Is that all correct?

We know suspect/know that Manhattan removed the JSA and killed the Kents. If he's trying to save the universe/multiverse, why would he do that? Because he's trying to harden the DCU and make the heroes more brutal, of course. Vertigo and WildStorm are full of hardcore badasses who won't blink at hard choices and body counts. The JSA are the elder statesmen of the DCU and their opinions carry weight; but they're old fashioned and not likely to support a tougher style of heroism. And way back in the New52, the death of the Kents was said to be a big part in Superman's rougher, more brash attitude (that he quickly outgrew, but still). So I still think Manhattan isn't the villain; he's still a misguided hero trying to do the right thing but unable to recognize the horror of his own actions, and we'll see the Watchmen and the DCU team up to battle this still unknown threat that Manhattan has been acting against.

However, with all the changes to management there's no telling what the plan is anymore.

[Korath]

I wonder if the Flashpoint-New52 reasoning of "preparing the DCU for a terrible threat" still holds? Been a long while so my memory might be wrong, but......Pandora combined Vertigo, WildStorm, and DC because the DCU wasn't "tough" enough to handle a vague, oncoming threat right? Then in the Rebirth special, we find out that Pandora has been working for Manhattan (right before he destroys her) which would indicate that he's actually trying to accomplish something good (even though his methods aren't). Is that all correct?

We know suspect/know that Manhattan removed the JSA and killed the Kents. If he's trying to save the universe/multiverse, why would he do that? Because he's trying to harden the DCU and make the heroes more brutal, of course. Vertigo and WildStorm are full of hardcore badasses who won't blink at hard choices and body counts. The JSA are the elder statesmen of the DCU and their opinions carry weight; but they're old fashioned and not likely to support a tougher style of heroism. And way back in the New52, the death of the Kents was said to be a big part in Superman's rougher, more brash attitude (that he quickly outgrew, but still). So I still think Manhattan isn't the villain; he's still a misguided hero trying to do the right thing but unable to recognize the horror of his own actions, and we'll see the Watchmen and the DCU team up to battle this still unknown threat that Manhattan has been acting against.

However, with all the changes to management there's no telling what the plan is anymore.

Honestly, if Johns introduce a true threat to the DCU instead of Manhattan, it's better be the Empty Hand. The Master of the Gentry is probably the only being terrible enough to even make Manhattan uneasy. But it doesn't seem that the Multiversal implications will truly be used here.

[Ascended]

Honestly, if Johns introduce a true threat to the DCU instead of Manhattan, it's better be the Empty Hand. The Master of the Gentry is probably the only being terrible enough to even make Manhattan uneasy. But it doesn't seem that the Multiversal implications will truly be used here.

My current guess is that Doomsday Clock is going to reveal what Manhattan's doing in the DCU, why he's here, why he's done what he has, and will ultimately tell us that there's a greater threat coming but won't deal with the threat itself. The mini will mostly stand on its own so DC can have an evergreen selling Watchmen sequel, but it'll set up DC's next big Event, which'll be the Crisis where the Watchmen and DC heroes fight to fix the DCU and repair the damage that's been done to reality. Rumor has it Snyder's writing a Crisis next year, right?

If I'm right, it's sorta the best case scenario. Clock has had a really tight, personal focus on a bunch of street level characters and if the book tries to go full on "multiverse war" in its last few issues I fear it'll end up failing as a story. And Johns can't write that high concept, Morrison type stuff in the first place. Snyder has proven he can manage it, between his highly successful Metal series and now Justice League, and he can take the setup from Johns and blow the scope of it up into a true Crisis event.

And yeah, I'm hoping for the Empty Hand.......but there's been a lot of cosmic entities running around lately who could presumably be the big bad. Or it could be someone totally new, too. Manhattan is a big fish, but he went from the little pond of Watchmen to the giant ocean of the DCU where there's a lot of fish just as big as him, or even bigger. So there's actually a pretty decent list of beings who could tangle with him on equal footing, and probably more than a couple who over power him.

[Korath]

It's true that right now the DCU has a lot of Crisis-level entities running around :

The first Mandrakk is back from the Overvoid in The Unexpected (even if his threat could be contained before he truly breaks free, considering the premise of the series).

Darkseid is playing around in the Ghost Sector, and Vril-Dox is around there somewhere.

The Anti-Life Equation is roaming around, even if the Anti-Monitor is dead actually.

Barbatos is only chained and could be freed, especially with the Batman Who Laughs apparently able to go in and out of the Dark Multiverse;

Inmate-Crisis is out but we don't know yet how it'll play out but he seems quite intent on destroying the Flashes, at least.

And the Empty Hand, of course, is still out there.

If a Crisis happens, DC has almost too many monsters to throw at our heroes !

[Sacred Knight]

Snyder is doing his big event next year, yep. With that said, its still just speculation that its going to be a Crisis. I'm a strong believer it is, because just so many things are lining up compared to the way things led up to the past two Crises, but it still counts as just speculation.

[manofsteel1979]

I'm still hoping we eventually find out the in universe hows and whys there where two Supermen and Lois Lanes running around and why they were split apart in the first place and such, but I have a feeling we will never get a clear answer or resolution. I know it really doesn't impact the current comics or direction of the line (which at the moment is superb) and that whole 2011-2016 period is pretty much a mulligan now in the characters publishing history, but I still wish it would be addressed. Maybe I'm the only one who still cares.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I've the feel that it won't be addressed. Superman being split/merged was an 11th hour justification for a continuity problem they created to bring Jon in the main book/universe. Why some writer should waste more time on this embarrassment?

[Cmbmool]

I've the feel that it won't be addressed. Superman being split/merged was an 11th hour justification for a continuity problem they created to bring Jon in the main book/universe. Why some writer should waste more time on this embarrassment?

The Splitting of Superman and Lois should DEFINITELY BE ADDRESS. I mean SOMETHING FROM THE SUPERMAN TITLES QUESTIONS needs to be answered in DOOMSDAY CLOCK, Right ?

[Last Son of Krypton]

The Splitting of Superman and Lois should DEFINITELY BE ADDRESS. I mean SOMETHING FROM THE SUPERMAN TITLES QUESTIONS needs to be answered in DOOMSDAY CLOCK, Right ?

In theory, yes it should be addressed. But characters splitted and/or merged are so stupid plot elements that I wouldn't be surprised if it'll end up being ignored.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm still hoping we eventually find out the in universe hows and whys there where two Supermen and Lois Lanes running around and why they were split apart in the first place and such, but I have a feeling we will never get a clear answer or resolution. I know it really doesn't impact the current comics or direction of the line (which at the moment is superb) and that whole 2011-2016 period is pretty much a mulligan now in the characters publishing history, but I still wish it would be addressed. Maybe I'm the only one who still cares.

Johns has been hinting there was something more to the Superman and Lois of Earth-2 since 2006. I strongly suspect he'll finally resolve that particular dangling plotline here.

[manofsteel1979]

Johns has been hinting there was something more to the Superman and Lois of Earth-2 since 2006. I strongly suspect he'll finally resolve that particular dangling plotline here.

I was referring to the fact we had New 52 Superman and his Lois Lane, and PreFlashpoint Superman and his Lois Lane co-existing at the same time. Yeah, we all know that was a retcon to set up the switch out from New 52 Superman to the previous version that would accompany REBIRTH, and yes we sort of already had an in continuity explanation via CONVERGENCE, but the REBORN story arc that merged the two Supermen and Lois' into one strongly implied that the previous explaination was no longer in play and that we had a sort of Superman and Lois Red/Superman and Lois Blue thing going on and that presumably Manhattan split the prime Supes and Lois apart for...some reason. It would be nice if they resolved that story thread. Although I have a sneaking suspicion Last Son of Krypton is right and they will probably ignore that aspect.

[Ascended]

I've the feel that it won't be addressed. Superman being split/merged was an 11th hour justification for a continuity problem they created to bring Jon in the main book/universe. Why some writer should waste more time on this embarrassment?

Well, I'd definitely like to see some kind of cohesive narrative again, and since that's part of the history now it should be addressed.....

But honestly? I'd be happy if they just gave us a throw away line to officially sweep it under the rug, and left it at that. If my theory about Manhattan fighting against a bigger threat turns out to be true, the excuse could be as simple as "two Supermen seemed better than one. But the universe couldn't contain the paradox and that experiment had to be ended, the subjects put back together." Whatever it is that's actually happening in the DCU, all I need is something as quick and stupid simple as that to satisfy me.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

As I recall Hitch's Justice League has a cosmic in-the-know type, in something clearly setting up Doomsday Clock, mention there are opposing forces astride reality, so a larger antagonist seems very likely.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Well, I'd definitely like to see some kind of cohesive narrative again, and since that's part of the history now it should be addressed.....

But honestly? I'd be happy if they just gave us a throw away line to officially sweep it under the rug, and left it at that. If my theory about Manhattan fighting against a bigger threat turns out to be true, the excuse could be as simple as "two Supermen seemed better than one. But the universe couldn't contain the paradox and that experiment had to be ended, the subjects put back together." Whatever it is that's actually happening in the DCU, all I need is something as quick and stupid simple as that to satisfy me.

If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath even for throw away line.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I was referring to the fact we had New 52 Superman and his Lois Lane, and PreFlashpoint Superman and his Lois Lane co-existing at the same time. Yeah, we all know that was a retcon to set up the switch out from New 52 Superman to the previous version that would accompany REBIRTH, and yes we sort of already had an in continuity explanation via CONVERGENCE, but the REBORN story arc that merged the two Supermen and Lois' into one strongly implied that the previous explaination was no longer in play and that we had a sort of Superman and Lois Red/Superman and Lois Blue thing going on and that presumably Manhattan split the prime Supes and Lois apart for...some reason. It would be nice if they resolved that story thread. Although I have a sneaking suspicion Last Son of Krypton is right and they will probably ignore that aspect.

I think the Earth-1 & Earth-2 split and the Pre-Flashpoint & New 52 splits are related to one another. Johns digs deep.