Superman in Doomsday Clock

[superduperman]

I'm a lost pilgrim here then, lol.

Sometimes I wonder if that's the worst thing in the world though. Its exhausting to be really invested in something in comics today, because everything hangs by a thread it seems. To be invested in a certain thing is to almost spend more time worrying about its status and if its going away tomorrow rather than just enjoying it. Its almost as if things are more enjoyable when the most one is invested is just in the concept of a character/mythos as opposed to the details, as the details are always in flux. That's me though, maybe others have an easier time tuning out the background noise that is internet news, leaks, and the like.

Testify! This is why I'm mostly interested in out of continuity versions of Superman now. They are simply more stable than the mainstream version. When they undid New 52 Superman I was so pissed I about walked away from DC altogether. I'm not sure I even care anymore about mainstream continuity. It's not a good sign when the most stable version of the DCU being published today is one where Superman is a villain.

[HeroVladimir93]

Testify! This is why I'm mostly interested in out of continuity versions of Superman now. They are simply more stable than the mainstream version. When they undid New 52 Superman I was so pissed I about walked away from DC altogether. I'm not sure I even care anymore about mainstream continuity. It's not a good sign when the most stable version of the DCU being published today is one where Superman is a villain.

Comic books have modify certain aspects of the Superman mythos in order to maintain levels of interests. That's how it has always been. Superman isn't necessarily the exact same character he was back in the Golden Age. He had to evolve in order to match the tastes of modern audiences. I think the benefit comics have over movies and TV shows is that they are the source material. They can experiment with the mythos without looking weird because fans expect that kind of change. Movies and TV shows are expected to follow the rules imposed by the comics, especially the classics, if they are to make adaptations.

[Miles To Go]

Testify! This is why I'm mostly interested in out of continuity versions of Superman now. They are simply more stable than the mainstream version. When they undid New 52 Superman I was so pissed I about walked away from DC altogether. I'm not sure I even care anymore about mainstream continuity. It's not a good sign when the most stable version of the DCU being published today is one where Superman is a villain.

At least with Injustice we had a happily married Bruce and Selina (even if the video game ultimately undoes it)

You can't help but be paranoid really, we got Lois and Clark discarded with in 2011 because the series was growing stale and many of us are just afraid history will repeat itself in a shorter span of time because, again, we deal with a much more fickle market these days, and you have readers who think the domesticated family dynamic has a finite shelf life (I think you could easily have gotten a decent decade out of it, but I can't speak for other people's investment), we're already seeing the family dynamic shift to more "modern" conventions, with a committed couple who are not above spending months apart and leaving their children to be raised by others..some of us are afraid that this is DC's way of mentally preparing readers for Clark flying solo again (a similar premise was proposed for Superman 2000...keep Lois out of the books, yet still show how much they love each other, and then end the relationship a year or so later)

[Yoda]

At least with Injustice we had a happily married Bruce and Selina (even if the video game ultimately undoes it)

You can't help but be paranoid really, we got Lois and Clark discarded with in 2011 because the series was growing stale and many of us are just afraid history will repeat itself in a shorter span of time because, again, we deal with a much more fickle market these days, and you have readers who think the domesticated family dynamic has a finite shelf life (I think you could easily have gotten a decent decade out of it, but I can't speak for other people's investment), we're already seeing the family dynamic shift to more "modern" conventions, with a committed couple who are not above spending months apart and leaving their children to be raised by others..some of us are afraid that this is DC's way of mentally preparing readers for Clark flying solo again (a similar premise was proposed for Superman 2000...keep Lois out of the books, yet still show how much they love each other, and then end the relationship a year or so later)

While I understand your anxiety, and share a good amount of it, I don't think Bendis is heading in that direction at all. Particularly after his statements on marriage in comics in general and Lois & Clark in particular. He's been pretty straightforward with his feelings that it's a central aspect of the characters relationship. And while I'm concerned about the execution, mainly i hope it gets much less ambiguous about Lois's intentions and motivations, I don't expect this is a Superman 2000 type bait and switch. His last Word Balloon interview more or less said he wants to show that the belief that you lose story potential with marriage is false.

And I especially don't expect that would come out of Doomsday Clock. I think it's possible that we see something happened to them in the series itself, but I expect at the end we get the status quo back.

[manofsteel1979]

While I understand your anxiety, and share a good amount of it, I don't think Bendis is heading in that direction at all. Particularly after his statements on marriage in comics in general and Lois & Clark in particular. He's been pretty straightforward with his feelings that it's a central aspect of the characters relationship. And while I'm concerned about the execution, mainly i hope it gets much less ambiguous about Lois's intentions and motivations, I don't expect this is a Superman 2000 type bait and switch. His last Word Balloon interview more or less said he wants to show that the belief that you lose story potential with marriage is false.

And I especially don't expect that would come out of Doomsday Clock. I think it's possible that we see something happened to them in the series itself, but I expect at the end we get the status quo back.

The only thing I personally am concerned about is the fact that Dan DiDio and Jim Lee are now back in the creative reigns of DC now that Johns has stepped away from his executive position. Now,granted that necessarily doesn't mean that Lois and Clark are being split up again, but since DiDio took over in 2003 there's been a general direction of trying to find some way out of the Lois and Clark marriage or some way to somehow return to the preCrisis "triangle for two" dynamic, even if generally the readers lean in the opposite direction. Granted, it was DiDio who sort of gave birth to the idea of Jon Kent and developed that with Jurgens, but I still think he and Lee, if they had their druthers, would prefer if the Super-marriage and Lois knowing the secret ID would somehow go away and bring that aspect back to the status quo they grew up with.

When Bendis says he isn't interested in breaking up the Superfamily and likes them and that concept, I believe him. I think as long as he's on the Superman books we don't have to worry about it. Once he leaves however, whether it's in a year or 5 years, I do wonder if DiDio and Lee if they are still in charge will hire someone that shares their view that Superman married to Lois Lane is some anchor on the franchise.

[Miles To Go]

When Bendis says he isn't interested in breaking up the Superfamily and likes them and that concept, I believe him. I think as long as he's on the Superman books we don't have to worry about it. Once he leaves however, whether it's in a year or 5 years, I do wonder if DiDio and Lee if they are still in charge will hire someone that shares their view that Superman married to Lois Lane is some anchor on the franchise.

The current editor of the Superman books has made it publicly known he doesn't like the marriage either, but said that he is, for now, enjoying the kind of stories that Bendis is creating with the marriage in play.

[manwhohaseverything]

I mean, We haven't had superfamily for months. And everybody seems to be enjoying the run. And even if the marriage is dissolved by some time-whamy, deal with devil non sense Lois and Clark are going to get back together, eventually. That is just how it goes, right? They were practically created together.she was there from day one. So, I don't know what the fuss is about.

[HeroVladimir93]

I mean, We haven't had superfamily for months. And everybody seems to be enjoying the run. And even if the marriage is dissolved by some time-whamy, deal with devil non sense Lois and Clark are going to get back together, eventually. That is just how it goes, right? They were practically created together.she was there from day one. So, I don't know what the fuss is about.

The problem is that fans don't like it when comic books shake the status quo they grew up and challenge truths and conventions they previously thought unshakable. Clark and Lois' marriage, once thought to be untouchable by many, was undone by the New 52. Sure, the marriage was restored after Convergence but it was ultimately clear that everything was fair game for DC as they could maintain levels of interest. DC has a vested interest in fans continuing to have a vested interest in their IPs, and if that means taking the characters into uncharted territoty, then so be it.

[Yoda]

Personally, I don't need the marriage explicitly to enjoy Superman even though that was the status quo I grew up reading and have enjoyed the most over the years. I thought that the dynamic in Man of Steel with her discovering his identity before he even becomes Superman and having a role in that was a fantastic take on the relationship and one that really should be incorporated into any reboot in the future. But with that said, keeping the romantic relationship between those two characters is a necessary and central core concept of the character.

I had little interest in New 52 Superman for a lot of reasons, but the lack of that relationship was a big one. Gail Simone has said that the story of Superman is in part a story of the romance between Superman and Lois Lane. And the fact that the most enduring and successful adaptations of the character all incorporate that element as a central theme really drives that home.

[manwhohaseverything]

The problem is that fans don't like it when comic books shake the status quo they grew up and challenge truths and conventions they previously thought unshakable. Clark and Lois' marriage, once thought to be untouchable by many, was undone by the New 52. Sure, the marriage was restored after Convergence but it was ultimately clear that everything was fair game for DC as they could maintain levels of interest. DC has a vested interest in fans continuing to have a vested interest in their IPs, and if that means taking the characters into uncharted territoty, then so be it.

Everthing is fair game. It was before the New 52 as well.lois and Clark was huge enough to survive this long. I have to believe it will in future. Ask any person to tell something about superman, one of the thing would that he rescues lois lane. Like it or not superman fans are stuck with lois. Even in New 52, I believe if it had continued, I believe lois and clark would have gotten back together(my predictions). The marketing might have "boohaha! Lois and Clark will never be together", Lois sucks, Clark is kewl and banging wonder woman ". It was all just bullshit. If it wasn't WB would gave been making movies with wonder woman and superman. They had a chance with batman v superman. They did not.

I am not saying that Clark and Lois aren't going to date other people. The whole wonder woman and superman thing is not sustainable. They are two big independent IP.

[HeroVladimir93]

Everthing is fair game. It was before the New 52 as well.lois and Clark was huge enough to survive this long. I have to believe it will in future. Ask any person to tell something about superman, one of the thing would that he rescues lois lane. Like it or not superman fans are stuck with lois. Even in New 52, I believe if it had continued, I believe lois and clark would have gotten back together(my predictions). The marketing might have "boohaha! Lois and Clark will never be together", Lois sucks, Clark is kewl and banging wonder woman ". It was all just bullshit. If it wasn't WB would gave been making movies with wonder woman and superman. They had a chance with batman v superman. They did not.

I am not saying that Clark and Lois aren't going to date other people. The whole wonder woman and superman thing is not sustainable. They are two big independent IP.

When talking about Superman's love interests, Lois is a much better option than Wonder Woman simply because she is, first and foremost, a Superman character. That's how fans know her as and how fans like her best. Wonder Woman is her character, independent from the Superman mythos. Yes, you are right that Superman/Wonder Woman had a questionable longevity because both characters live in entirely different worlds and have entirely different adventures and a romance between the two reduces their agency and independence as protagonists of their own stories; at least that's my opinion. Whenever a Superman adaptation gets publicized, I prefer that the Clark/Lois romance is developed to the point where she is already aware of his secret identity and can provide him with support, counsel or just a shoulder to cry on. That's one of the reasons I enjoyed Man of Steel so much. I've lost interest in the "triangle for two" dynamic because the source material hasn't explored that dynamic in years, so there is no reason to explore it again, especially when the characters have evolved beyond that stage.

[Yoda]

Once Doomsday Clock #8 is out officially, I'm going to sit down and write up my argument that Man of Steel is set after it and then you all can tell me how wrong I am.

I need time to gather all my citations and reference material.

[manwhohaseverything]

When talking about Superman's love interests, Lois is a much better option than Wonder Woman simply because she is, first and foremost, a Superman character. That's how fans know her as and how fans like her best. Wonder Woman is her character, independent from the Superman mythos. Yes, you are right that Superman/Wonder Woman had a questionable longevity because both characters live in entirely different worlds and have entirely different adventures and a romance between the two reduces their agency and independence as protagonists of their own stories; at least that's my opinion. Whenever a Superman adaptation gets publicized, I prefer that the Clark/Lois romance is developed to the point where she is already aware of his secret identity and can provide him with support, counsel or just a shoulder to cry on. That's one of the reasons I enjoyed Man of Steel so much. I've lost interest in the "triangle for two" dynamic because the source material hasn't explored that dynamic in years, so there is no reason to explore it again, especially when the characters have evolved beyond that stage.

The triangle thing, I don't know. It might have a market and enough people who want it. Writers might even be able to spin it a way modern audiences can enjoy it. I don't know anything about that, DC and WB have professionals for these things, right? To make these decisions? SO They will do their jobs.If they do a bad job, they will lose their job. Personally, I am fine either way as long as the dynamics is good and both characters are treated with respect.

The thing with Lois and Clark is, Lois is treated as human baggage (someone who Clark has to always rescue) for Clark, weakness that will ultimately turn him evil or keeps him from evil because of this some people hate the pairing. This kind of portrayals does not do the characters justice and hurts popularity . So, fans should be more worried of these interpretations.

All I can optimistically say, is that an interpretation of relationship of Lois and Clark will always be around.
I don't necessarily think wonder woman and superman or batman and wonder woman are bad. But It just constricts their ip If done long term. WB knows that, DC knows that.

[HeroVladimir93]

A huge challenge Doomsday Clock faces, in my opinion, is the way it portrays Superman. From the beginning of the story, it's been hinted Superman will be a major player and as the story unfolds we see Superman get slowly involved the current events. Doomsday Clock is a story that marks the contrast between the classic heroes of the DC Universe and morally ambiguous anti-heroes from Watchmen, and being the progenitor of the modern superhero genre, it makes sense that Superman has a central role.

The problem is that Superman will be sharing the spotlight with those other characters and those characters, be they from the regular DC Universe or from Watchmen, have to justify their role in the story. Some fans, right or wrong, have no desire to see Clark brought down even one peg in an effort to prop up or propel the new character forward. Is that fair to that new character? Maybe not, but Clark is the precedence setter in the franchise and the standard against which the new character will be measured or judged.

I'm not saying that Doomsday Clock should say that Superman is much better than any other superhero, that would just alienate fans of other superheroes and would come off as blatant favoritism from the writer's part. Still, I'd be happy to if Doomsday Clock turned out to be a story that elevates Superman, not by deconstructing him but by honoring him.

[manwhohaseverything]

A huge challenge Doomsday Clock faces, in my opinion, is the way it portrays Superman. From the beginning of the story, it's been hinted Superman will be a major player and as the story unfolds we see Superman get slowly involved the current events. Doomsday Clock is a story that marks the contrast between the classic heroes of the DC Universe and morally ambiguous anti-heroes from Watchmen, and being the progenitor of the modern superhero genre, it makes sense that Superman has a central role.

The problem is that Superman will be sharing the spotlight with those other characters and those characters, be they from the regular DC Universe or from Watchmen, have to justify their role in the story. Some fans, right or wrong, have no desire to see Clark brought down even one peg in an effort to prop up or propel the new character forward. Is that fair to that new character? Maybe not, but Clark is the precedence setter in the franchise and the standard against which the new character will be measured or judged.

I'm not saying that Doomsday Clock should say that Superman is much better than any other superhero, that would just alienate fans of other superheroes and would come off as blatant favoritism from the writer's part. Still, I'd be happy to if Doomsday Clock turned out to be a story that elevates Superman, not by deconstructing him but by honoring him.

I don't think the series has done any of the propping up of character. If it is about the public opinion turning on Clark, I believe it is necessary for showing the contrast between Clark and Jon. At the start of the series Clark's superman in regarded foremost symbol of heroism, and is trusted by Everyday person and all governments of the world.In the watchmen comics also the public opinion was starting to turn on Jon. And powerwise Jon is more powerful. Whereas Jon secluded himself, "well, we will see what Clark does".
Clark's philosophy and optimism will be tested but so will Jon's apathy . For me atleast, bringing these two together is such a treat. Thematically, they are so very opposite and similar at the same time. Johns is putting in the work. Book is great, with some pacing issues.