Superman in Doomsday Clock

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I don't think the JSA are getting screwed over here, it's really that Superman and the JLA that are going to lose their impact by having this other generation come before them.

Oh, it PROFOUNDLY screws them over, maybe even more than Superman and the JLA themselves. You can at least read a Superman comic and ignore that his place at the foundation of the universe has been kneecapped, but with the JSA that's always going to mean presenting them as the original, primal heroes in a world where they can never, ever actually be the lead (or depending on your feelings on the Titans even secondary) superhero team, or in the case of most of their biggest members the most notable heroes by their own names.

[SiegePerilous02]

Oh, it PROFOUNDLY screws them over, maybe even more than Superman and the JLA themselves. You can at least read a Superman comic and ignore that his place at the foundation of the universe has been kneecapped, but with the JSA that's always going to mean presenting them as the original, primal heroes in a world where they can never, ever actually be the lead (or depending on your feelings on the Titans even secondary) superhero team, or in the case of most of their biggest members the most notable heroes by their own names.

You make a good point, I didn't even think of that.

Post-COIE set up really screws things up all around. But of course, that seems to be the one most fans want, so DC will give that push. And inevitably drop the ball again.

[Superlad93]

I've never had much of an issue with the JSA coming first way back in the day in public or in secret. I dunno, maybe I'm just a sucker for the idea that their were mystery men and women in the DCU during the 40s, but it's not like I know or care enough about the JSA to have formed a firmly rooted stance. I know enough, and have read a bit. I can more or less see where both sides are coming from.

I honestly take much more issue with putting the Shazam world inside of the main DCU. But I've even pretty much rolled over now that since Johns is basically turning them into the magic Fantastic Four, and it actually really suits the property in a pretty great way.

[greatmetropolitan]

I don't at all mind the JSA being first, so long as they operated in secret. Maybe rumours of the mystery men of WWII, but nothing public. I think the JSA would be utterly astonished at the appearance of Superman, out in public, dressed in bright colours and smiling. It would never have occurred to them to go public, that they would have been accepted. Especially once McCarthyism started. They'll have been told to stay secret in WWII to keep the Allies' tactical advantage, and then asked by the government to remain in secret through the Cold War.

This way, when Clark goes public, he actually inspires the JSA as much as he does the next generation. His appearance is what encourages them to come out of retirement. That gives the JSA and their legacies a great place in the DCU, but also keeps Superman as the first public hero and the greatest heroic inspiration on earth, to past and future generations.

[Sacred Knight]

I prefer Superman being first, but its not even so much the effect it has on Superman and the JLA rather the effect it has on the JSA themselves. Keeping them on the main Earth with WWII roots does them no favors. The status quo allows for lip service to be paid to their importance, but in the long run they're never truly important. We saw it way too many times in the post-Crisis era and I have no confidence it won't continue. They'll be a big deal for a brief period after they make their big return in Doomsday Clock, but it won't even be a year before they fade into background niche status. A few years later after that it'll then be major shakeup time to try and re-capture interest. They're always overshadowed by the more popular--and more relevant in the current time period--characters when they exist with them.

[SiegePerilous02]

I prefer Superman being first, but its not even so much the effect it has on Superman and the JLA rather the effect it has on the JSA themselves. Keeping them on the main Earth with WWII roots does them no favors. The status quo allows for lip service to be paid to their importance, but in the long run they're never truly important. We saw it way too many times in the post-Crisis era and I have no confidence it won't continue. They'll be a big deal for a brief period after they make their big return in Doomsday Clock, but it won't even be a year before they fade into background niche status. A few years later after that it'll then be major shakeup time to try and re-capture interest. They're always overshadowed by the more popular--and more relevant in the current time period--characters when they exist with them.

Yes, the JSA being on the main Earth but the JLA needing to constantly be in "the now" in a world that's at least somewhat recognizable as our own means the JSA never made much of an impact on the world in the long run or ushered in much change. On Earth-2, they can debut in WWII and radically alter history with their presence, because it's not "our" Earth and so its history doesn't have to match our own. Characters can age and die/retire, they basically have more freedom to do whatever they want with the JSA and their legacies. And by tying them to WWII on our Earth but having the present day basically be now, it really doesn't make sense to have their kids be as young as they are.

Plus, putting them on the main Earth has historically played havoc with the origins of the Hawks and Power Girl, and poor Helena Wayne and Earth-2 Dick Grayson's lives turned into a cosmic horror story before they died and all trace of their existence vanished.

[HeroVladimir93]

Yes, the JSA being on the main Earth but the JLA needing to constantly be in "the now" in a world that's at least somewhat recognizable as our own means the JSA never made much of an impact on the world in the long run or ushered in much change. On Earth-2, they can debut in WWII and radically alter history with their presence, because it's not "our" Earth and so its history doesn't have to match our own. Characters can age and die/retire, they basically have more freedom to do whatever they want with the JSA and their legacies. And by tying them to WWII on our Earth but having the present day basically be now, it really doesn't make sense to have their kids be as young as they are.

Plus, putting them on the main Earth has historically played havoc with the origins of the Hawks and Power Girl, and poor Helena Wayne and Earth-2 Dick Grayson's lives turned into a cosmic horror story before they died and all trace of their existence vanished.

This is why I don't think playing the nostalgia card is not always a good idea. The higher-ups at DC seem more concerned about appeasing disgruntled fans than creating a stronger sense of narrative continuity. I prefer Superman being the first public superhero, particularly because he is supposed to be the originator of the modern superhero genre, but I can understand the JSA's place in DC history. People are so eager at getting the JSA and the Legion of Super-Heroes back that they don't seem to realize what could happen if those properties do make their comeback. Even if those factions returns, what are they going to do? Where do they go next?

[BBally]

I think the New 52 making all the JSA characters younger and different had more to do with their rejection than being on another the Earth. The oldest history of the DCU has them being on their own Earth, the post Crisis legacy is just that: a legacy that's only existed since 1986. It is not the classic setup.

Actually a good number of Post Crisis fans clearly stated losing that legacy as one of the reasons why they didn't like the change to the status quo in the New 52.

The funny thing is that Jack Kennedy did a retcon to the Pre-Crisis history during his Jimmy Olsen run which introduced Cadmus by having the original Guardian be part of Earth 1 history before Superman made his debut

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually a good number of Post Crisis fans clearly stated losing that legacy as one of the reasons why they didn't like the change to the status quo in the New 52.

The funny thing is that Jack Kennedy did a retcon to the Pre-Crisis history during his Jimmy Olsen run which introduced Cadmus by having the original Guardian be part of Earth 1 history before Superman made his debut

I know the negative impact on the Titans and YJ generations was a major source if ire for fans, and those characters actually ARE legacies with actual important ties to the most marketable characters DC has. The concept of legacy as a whole took a big hit. Outside of the Flashes (who can hop between Earths, so Barry and Wally can still see Jay plenty), the JSA doesn't have much of a legacy impact on the JLA heroes, so what are we losing exactly? We are gaining a massive headache with Hawkman though, and losing some legacies like Power Girl and Helena Wayne with the Post-Crisis set up. As in most things, the Pre-Crisis set up was just cleaner and relatively more coherent.

The JSA had legacies that actually mattered to them during pre-Crisis, it was just on their own Earth. New 52 not only cut the WWII ties, it made all the characters younger and unrecognizable. That was the big problem. Had the WWII era JSA members been put on Earth-2 again with Power Girl, Jade, Obsidian, Jack Knight, Michael Holt acting as their legacies in the modern day we may be looking at a different reaction.

I think you mean Jack Kirby, to my knowledge JFK never wrote comics
And one superhero is different than an entire generation. If we're honoring the full legacy of the JSA, that means they had a Wonder Woman on their team and associated pretty heavily with a Superman and a Batman. Who all had legacies that were big parts of Infinity Inc. That is impossible to do with the post-Crisis set up, as the years of tedious retcons and reboots can attest to.

[LordUltimus]

No offense to the Man of Steel, and I certainly understand from a meta perspective why there's such focus on him this issue, but isn't the whole visiting dignitaries and trying to keep nations from committing war and despotism more of a Wonder Woman thing?

[Vordan]

No offense to the Man of Steel, and I certainly understand from a meta perspective why there's such focus on him this issue, but isn't the whole visiting dignitaries and trying to keep nations from committing war and despotism more of a Wonder Woman thing?

It’s supposed to be, but in practice not really. Diana rarely does any actual diplomatic work, just like how Bruce rarely does any detective work.

[HeroVladimir93]

It’s supposed to be, but in practice not really. Diana rarely does any actual diplomatic work, just like how Bruce rarely does any detective work.

Batman and Wonder Woman are superheroes, first and foremost. If they are anything beyond that, well, I guess that's a complement to their superhero status.

[Superlad93]

No offense to the Man of Steel, and I certainly understand from a meta perspective why there's such focus on him this issue, but isn't the whole visiting dignitaries and trying to keep nations from committing war and despotism more of a Wonder Woman thing?

But that wasn't really because Superman has assumed a diplomatic role of any kind, but rather a byproduct of the near universal trust and good will he's amassed in the eyes of nations, civilians, and heroes alike by just being a firefighter/handyman in a cape aka just doing his normal thing. The impromptu nature of him even being able to enter other air spaces at the height of the Superman Theory is a direct result of the specific universal trust afforded to him alone. In this story, people recognize Superman as a citizen of Earth rather any any one nation. There is no Paradise Island, Atlantes, or even America in the backs of people's minds when he shows up (until after this issue that is.)

That's why Batman desperately wanted him to appear neutral. That position was something Superman, and Superman alone could've had, and Batman (and Ozzy) saw that.

[Yoda]

Wonder Woman's role as an ambassador hasn't really been referenced at all post-Rebirth that I can recall, outside of one or two references to her having lived in an embassy. In story, she is also apparently missing rumored to have been abducted by the Amazons and taken back to Themescaria. Flash is oddly been MIA too.

[K. Jones]

I've got loads of love for the JSA being a previous generation of heroes existing on the Prime Earth. I'm actually less of a fan of the whole Earth-2 shift anyway, though I did still love those JLA/JSA Annual Crisis team-ups and like the legacy they established in the context of bigger cosmic crises. (Even if ultimately those were just sci-fi tropes meant to give us a reason to have "all these characters in one book on one page".

My issue for a long time has been servicing the whole World War II storyline with them when characters like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman have easily moved on and been divorced from that timeframe. WWII was 80 years ago. Every few years, a crisis tries to find a different take on how to Captain America those guys into the present day. Time travel, stasis, cosmic rejuvenation forces, reincarnation. And then separately individual members of the JSA also kind of get that treatment. And it's even still happening, as Hawkman, Doctor Fate and Jay Garrick all get different reasons for escaping Manhattan's project even as the whole of the JSA itself gets a bigger treatment. And Johnny Thunder has to be in his Nineties, or maybe even 100 years old!

So much easier if they're just on the sliding timescale with everyone else, as the mystery men "lower key" heroes from ten or fifteen years prior to the Big Superhero Surge that began with Superman and culminated in the JLA.

And that doesn't mean you fully have to drop WWII from all of their backstories, as characters like Hawkman or Spectre or Doctor Fate have plenty of built-in story logic for how they could still have been involved with the fight against Super-Nazis.