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  1. #646
    Spectacular Member Yoda's Avatar
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    It's going to come down to a ideological battle between Manhattan/Ozymandias and Superman. Manhattan is the cold, hopeless detachment (a major criticism of New 52 storytelling Johns identified was the lack of the relationship and history between the characters after the reboot); while Ozymandias embodies the cynical, manipulative, ends justifies the means superheroing that was mimicked relentlessly and poorly after Watchmen. I think the overall point of this as a response/companion to Watchmen is not to deconstruct Superman like Moore has in the past, but to argue that the strength of these characters is their hope, relationships, and history.

    I'd be really surprised if the climax of the series is an actual battle between Manhattan and Superman actually.

    spoilers:
    I think the story will definitely go down the road of taking Superman down in status within the DCU, given the events of No. 8, but ultimately we will see that through his relationships, not only with Lois, but with Batman, other heroes, and importantly his parents, will not become the cynical dark, detached character that Manhattan has become.
    end of spoilers

  2. #647
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm a lost pilgrim here then, lol.

    Sometimes I wonder if that's the worst thing in the world though. Its exhausting to be really invested in something in comics today, because everything hangs by a thread it seems. To be invested in a certain thing is to almost spend more time worrying about its status and if its going away tomorrow rather than just enjoying it. Its almost as if things are more enjoyable when the most one is invested is just in the concept of a character/mythos as opposed to the details, as the details are always in flux. That's me though, maybe others have an easier time tuning out the background noise that is internet news, leaks, and the like.
    It's not only comics, the entire media or art of fiction is like that. I'm still dead inside because of what happened to Justice League movie both behing the scenes and on screen, sometimes regretting I invested into that version of DC universe at all. But it all comes down to what you get more out of your investment: joy or pain. MoS and BvS are my joy, I will take it and leave DCEU to whatever it is going to become now, still watching, but not invested anymore. There will always be suffering if you got yourself to love fiction so much. One day something will get a remake or reboot or unnecesarry sequel that will taint or ruin your image of favorite thing. There is no easy way.

  3. #648
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    I guess everyone was so enraptured with the leak that this just didn't result in a discussion when it actually hit the stands? Solid issue of Superman doing his best in Watchmen's narrative context enveloping the DCU; definitely on the upper end of Johns' writing for the character. And while there's still some "everyone still loves Superman even as they fear all other superheroes now" stuff that's really jaggedly pointed in setting him up for a fall, there's a bit between him and Firestorm that hits that note in a really sincere, powerful way.

    Also, regarding Superman's place in the DCU here, spoilers:
    GOD I hope they don't follow through on the possibility of the JSA once again being an entirely public superhero team that predated Superman and the rest of the big guns by decades; death of the multiverse be damned, that was the most catastrophically wrong-headed large-scale continuity reengineering decision DC Comics ever made and the best aspect of the New 52/Rebirth era in terms of the larger mythology is that it finally ditched that.
    end of spoilers
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  4. #649
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Pretty sure that's exactly what's happening with the JSA, sadly.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  5. #650
    Amazing Member RudHao's Avatar
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    When Superman tells Black Adam that he is "authorized" but Adam is not, the hell does that mean? He works for the state department or the UN now?

  6. #651
    Spectacular Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudHao View Post
    When Superman tells Black Adam that he is "authorized" but Adam is not, the hell does that mean? He works for the state department or the UN now?
    The opposite actually. Individual countries have given him authorization to act within their borders given the tensions that metahumans and villains are supposedly some sort of secret United States weapons program. There's no indication that he's working for any government or international organization. He's the only super being seen as operating independently on everyone's behalf so they have no fear of allowing him into their country.

    At least until this issue.
    Last edited by Yoda; 12-06-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #652
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudHao View Post
    When Superman tells Black Adam that he is "authorized" but Adam is not, the hell does that mean? He works for the state department or the UN now?
    Though not clearly spelled out, it appears that the international community recognizes Superman as some kind of international ambassador.

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  8. #653
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Yup, still shaping up to be one of my favorite DC events. It's had some pretty hard missteps (looking at you Reggie issue), but when it does this whole great anthology look at the DCU in this, like, HBO limited series sort of way, I can't help but be totally invested. Also, I don't think I can find one bad thing to say about how Superman written in this issue. Same goes for Lois.

    Don't know why it took me two reads to realize that Ozzy was one of the solders in Russia that fired on Firestrom thus causing a panic. You can see the uniform at the end.
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  9. #654
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Pretty sure that's exactly what's happening with the JSA, sadly.
    Yes, because DC can never hit the sweet middle spot and keeps radically moving to the opposite extremes. "People didn't like New 52 Earth-2, so let's go back to the way it was immediately prior!"

    Plus, Johns totally wants it that way.

  10. #655
    Master Hero Vladimir
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes, because DC can never hit the sweet middle spot and keeps radically moving to the opposite extremes. "People didn't like New 52 Earth-2, so let's go back to the way it was immediately prior!"

    Plus, Johns totally wants it that way.
    And what exactly would the sweet middle spot be in this case?

  11. #656
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroVladimir93 View Post
    And what exactly would the sweet middle spot be in this case?
    spoilers:
    The classic takes of the JSA and all their legacies, with as much of their history restored, but on Earth-2. All the team ups with the JLA could be written as Multiverse crossovers. Basically the pre-Crisis set-up and allowing for later additions like Jack Knight, Stargirl, Cyclone, etc. They seem to be reacting the failure of the New 52 Earth-2 with "well, we need to restore the classics!" but not actually restoring the classic take, just the post-Crisis one. And forcing them onto the same Earth as the JLA upsets the impact the latter group has when they first arrive on the scene, particularly Superman. And played havoc with the likes of Power Girl and Hawkman's continuties
    end of spoilers

  12. #657
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    I guess everyone was so enraptured with the leak that this just didn't result in a discussion when it actually hit the stands? Solid issue of Superman doing his best in Watchmen's narrative context enveloping the DCU; definitely on the upper end of Johns' writing for the character. And while there's still some "everyone still loves Superman even as they fear all other superheroes now" stuff that's really jaggedly pointed in setting him up for a fall, there's a bit between him and Firestorm that hits that note in a really sincere, powerful way.

    Also, regarding Superman's place in the DCU here, spoilers:
    GOD I hope they don't follow through on the possibility of the JSA once again being an entirely public superhero team that predated Superman and the rest of the big guns by decades; death of the multiverse be damned, that was the most catastrophically wrong-headed large-scale continuity reengineering decision DC Comics ever made and the best aspect of the New 52/Rebirth era in terms of the larger mythology is that it finally ditched that.
    end of spoilers
    Here's the thing there are a lot of fans who prefer the Post Crisis concept of the DCU having legacy heroes like the JSA to the point that when the New52 began one of the biggest gripes Post Crisis fans had was removing legacy heroes like JSA.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

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  13. #658
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Here's the thing there are a lot of fans who prefer the Post Crisis concept of the DCU having legacy heroes like the JSA to the point that when the New52 began one of the biggest gripes Post Crisis fans had was removing legacy heroes like JSA.
    I think the New 52 making all the JSA characters younger and different had more to do with their rejection than being on another the Earth. The oldest history of the DCU has them being on their own Earth, the post Crisis legacy is just that: a legacy that's only existed since 1986. It is not the classic setup.

    The JSA and their legacy never really impacted anything but their own little corner when they are on the main Earth. But Superman loses his status as the first public superhero to accommodate them. So he loses something, they get a little bit of a boost, but not much of one since they generally don't effect things unless they have a big name like Johns attached to them. Otherwise, they get ignored in favor of the JLA. I care far more about Superman than the JSA and their legacy that isn't even an accurate legacy if we're not going by post-Crisis only. They should be on Earth-2, just with the old schoolers and their history intact and the likes of Infinity Inc etc. carrying on their mission.

  14. #659
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes, because DC can never hit the sweet middle spot and keeps radically moving to the opposite extremes. "People didn't like New 52 Earth-2, so let's go back to the way it was immediately prior!"

    Plus, Johns totally wants it that way.
    And apparently everything is about what he wants. I don't mind the idea of the JSA being on the same Earth as the modern heroes. What I take issue with is the idea that once again it's Johns who gets to decide what becomes of them just like everything else. And yes, the biggest issue people had with the New 52 Earth 2 was the de-aging process, not that they were on another Earth. If it were up to me, I'd make something like the KC Earth Earth 2 or maybe the Generations Earth. Something that's already out there.
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  15. #660
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    And apparently everything is about what he wants. I don't mind the idea of the JSA being on the same Earth as the modern heroes. What I take issue with is the idea that once again it's Johns who gets to decide what becomes of them just like everything else. And yes, the biggest issue people had with the New 52 Earth 2 was the de-aging process, not that they were on another Earth. If it were up to me, I'd make something like the KC Earth Earth 2 or maybe the Generations Earth. Something that's already out there.
    I don't mind when Johns is in charge of creative decisions and gets his way with certain properties. But he has historically been kind of iffy on Superman (at best), and better with the JSA. So I think him wanting the JSA back on the main Earth might be a result of thinking that's what's best for them, but Superman yet again will have to make accommodations for these lesser characters: he loses his impact upon his first appearance so they can come before him in the timeline. I don't think the JSA are getting screwed over here, it's really that Superman and the JLA that are going to lose their impact by having this other generation come before them. And outside of the speedsters, it's not like the JLA have any legacy attachment to the JSA to begin with. Why are they looking to them as elder statesmen when they didn't learn anything from them, and were historically not generally inspired by them?

    Just stick them on Earth-2 as their true selves, they'll be fine.

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