Superman in Doomsday Clock

[Sacred Knight]

Well, time travel is a slippery slope. He's still from Clark's future at a time before the imp intervened so I'm not seeing why that'd matter yet. But agree to disagree, I interpret it very differently. And frankly its really the first time I've ever seen it suggested that it could have erased the Legion entirely from his life. That its only coming up now after this book is even more an indicator that its an alteration to the original material to support what was just written.

But I mean, if others don't find it a big deal to each their own of course. This is just one guy's opinion, I respect that others love the issue and the message.

[MajorHoy]

. . . How long until #11?

Currently scheduled for August 14th.

https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAR190507

[Superlad93]

And frankly its really the first time I've ever seen it suggested that it could have erased the Legion entirely from his life. That its only coming up now after this book is even more an indicator that its an alteration to the original material to support what was just written.

I've honestly suspected this since Pak took over. The slight alterations to Clark's origin in his run, and the going completely dark on all things Legion involving Clark had me a bit suspicious. I think Morrison left it ambiguous, and no other writer picked it up or was allowed to pick it up, so you take door 2 where they are erased.

I think Morrison may have been given the OK on the use of the Legion in his Superman story because he was using a version with an 19 issue expiration date. Totally disposable because they came from a future were the bad guys ultimately won when the hero lost in the present story. It always felt odd to me.

[Sacred Knight]

Fair enough, fair enough. By no means was that an accusation that you yourself never really felt that way. You're under no obligation to prove your feelings to me of course, your word is more than good enough. Obviously considering my own argument I never felt that way, I always made a clear distinction between the Legion in his memory, who appeared "classic" all the way, to altered adult ones. And I was never suspicious about it being green-lit on those grounds because even before the New 52, Johns had already brought the Legion back into the pre-FP Clark's life years prior. It would seem odd to me that this was okayed, but for the New 52, whose intention was an even more pre-Crisis inspiration, their inclusion would have to be qualified again.

Perhaps their lack of use thereafter is an indication of something, but it would still greatly confuse me if so.

[stargazer01]

Every month, even with the delays this book continues to blow me away. This was amazing. spoilers:

I loved the recontextualizing of the metaverse (kinda borrows from Alan Moore's Supreme in a way) and Manhattan realizing he's become the villain in this universe was amazing. Manhattan's line about how "intoxicating" it was to mess with Superman and mold him into his own image and make him "relatable" read to me as some serious metashade on the constant need for creators to mess with the underlying character of SUperman to create something they deem better or relatable. Johns basically saying this about himself in the context of the New 52 and how they become the villains of their own stories by doing this. Kinda unreal that this came out juxtaposed against Heroes in Crisis #9, which is inarguably that exact type of story.

end of spoilers How long until #11?

Interesting. I haven't read this story but I don't mind being a bit spoiled haha. How many more chapters before it ends? If it ends well, I'd like to buy it.

[HsssH]

My guess is all of this is just an excuse to explain away all the reboots and retcons. That IS the payoff. "This is why he gets a new origin every five years. Manhattan is messing with him." This puts them in an odd position: They can't reboot him again anytime soon without coming up with some other explanation for how it happened. Once Manhattan is out of the picture, any future reboots become problematic. I think that whatever his current origin is, whether it be SO or something new, will probably stick around for a while. They're sick of doing the Homer with the toaster thing.

It is not like someone is forcing them to do new Superman origin every few years. I have hard time believing that now they'll suddenly stop doing that due to Doomsday Clock.

[Yoda]

Interesting. I haven't read this story but I don't mind being a bit spoiled haha. How many more chapters before it ends? If it ends well, I'd like to buy it.

There's 2 chapters left, but at the rate it's going it won't finish up until like November. It starts out really slow and really focused on the Watchmen characters for the first 6 issues - to the point where I was kinda ready to give up on it - but the back half has been fantastic.

[stargazer01]

There's 2 chapters left, but at the rate it's going it won't finish up until like November. It starts out really slow and really focused on the Watchmen characters for the first 6 issues - to the point where I was kinda ready to give up on it - but the back half has been fantastic.

thanks, I would too since I don't care about the Watchmen world. So how many chapters so far then?

[Yoda]

thanks, I would too since I don't care about the Watchmen world. So how many chapters so far then?

Part 10 of 12 just came out today. They are going to collect 1-6 in the fall. And 7-12 sometime next year most likely.

[stargazer01]

Part 10 of 12 just came out today. They are going to collect 1-6 in the fall. And 7-12 sometime next year most likely.

again thanks. So just to be clear, What is this story really about? It's not a true Superman story? I really don't want to waste my $ if Supes is not a really important character in this.

[MajorHoy]

again thanks. So just to be clear, What is this story really about? It's not a true Superman story?

It's Geoff Johns playing with the Watchmen, with other DC characters showing up as well.

[Yoda]

again thanks. So just to be clear, What is this story really about? It's not a true Superman story? I really don't want to waste my $ if Supes is not a really important character in this.

Tough to answer. Superman is definitely a major character in the story, and thematically one of the most important, but it is more of a DCU story than Superman. Superman probably has a handful of pages in the first 6 issues, but is the central focus of Part 8 and plays a very large role in Part 10. He's set up to play a central role in the last two issues as well. It focuses a lot on the Watchmen characters, Dr. Manhattan, Ozymandias, Rostarche, and Comedian. With two new characters playing a central role in one issue.

I initially went in thinking it was going to be a Superman story, and that played a role in my initial negative reaction. But really a lot comes into focus around issue 7 and I appreciate the first six issues a lot more.

[stargazer01]

thanks guys. I'll wait when it ends to hear more if it's worth buying.

[Sacred Knight]

So if I'm clear, the main message is that anytime the main universe (main Earth) is tampered with and changed, it resonates to all other multiverses in a unique way. So like, if Earth-S gets changed to a degree by some timeline altering event, it won't have any affect on Earth-0 nor any other Earth necessarily. But if Earth-0 is changed, it affects everything to some degree every time. Is this correct?

If I'm understanding right, this is pretty much their out for things like Earth-3 suddenly having a living Crime Syndicate. Earth-0 was changed via Rebirth, and thus the Earth-3 that was around during the New 52 was changed too. Same could be applicable if they want to revisit Earth-2 but have a desire to make it completely disconnected from the last project as well. When the main continuity goes through a change, all bets are off for the rest of the multiverse too. I think that's a pretty decent set-up, only fair to give Johns kudos there. Theoretically now they could do anything they wanted with Earth-1 or Earth-2 or and not have to explain why its different than the OGN's or New 52 E2. Anytime there's a timeline shift in main continuity, and god knows that happens frequently, you have your built in reason to change up other Earths to any degree you want and not have to stay married to at least the descriptors of the map.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah. Any frustration I have at the delays melts away when I read each new issue and am blown away by how good it has become. I have a few very long flights in the next month and I'm looking forward to rereading this in its entirety. Probably going to have to take some notes all the way through!

I re-read all the prior issues a little while back and the whole thing reads so much better altogether.